REndres: Please let me know 1) where one might reach you, 2) where we might find that article about projectionists where you spoke about curtain cues, and I’m still curious how you might present a roadshow at the Ziegfeld.
Mr E: is the current title curtain at the Zieg too sheer to be used effectively, or can the curtain warmer lights prevent seeing the screen through it?
I knew that projecting things onto the curtain had been done before, thanks for the examples, I tried to do it for a screening at the DGA but the slide projector wasn’t bright enough. And yes, one adventage of digital projection is the ability to easily throw an image onto the curtain or to fill a ghastly naked screen for the walk-in.
The Bridge effectively uses a simple slide of their logo against a black background. (Black background means you never see the edges of the slide) ArcLight throws up this awful dirty blurry slide of nobodyknows what (their signature image is a pair of blurry hands trying to form a A – not artsy, just stupid) and the slides never fill the screen, so they look like exactly that, a dirty blurry slide of nothing recognizable. Instead of making the place look classy, it has the opposite effect, looks amateurish, or like a classroom with an overhead projector aimed at the wall.
Mr Endres: How would you present a roadshow at the Ziegfeld today?
And where may we read this times article on projection that includes talk of your use of the curtains?
Wow, Mr. Endres! …You know, I learned your name years ago in one of my early encounters with RCMH, (I think you were in the souvenir program) so you were a big name in my mind all these years. Reading your posts today is like being able to go back and interact with that great era of Showmanship. Someone should do a book of your stories, you’re like living history! (actually I know someone who would love to interview you) It’s a priviledge to hear from you. Please take good care of yourself, you are an invaluable resource.
(Hoping that comes off as sincere respectful appreciation rather than sycophantic ass-kissing)
Back to topic: does anyone have anything specific to say about the Ziegfeld’s second curtain, what it was put there for, and how it should be used today (particularly for a roadshow)? BTW, interesting what you get from a google search on the words “roadshow” or “cinema showmanship.” Wikipedia has a long definition of roadshow that’s generally accurate.
I really think that kind of showmanship can be appreciated by today’s audiences. In a conversation some time ago with an ArcLight manager about how their upper management has no clue of showmanship, I mentioned that projecting a slide of the feature’s logo onto the curtain as the audience arrived would be a nice touch. Many months later I heard people who had never experienced any kind of cinema showmanship talk enthusiastically about the Roadshow run of DREAMGIRLS at the Cinerama Dome… Several of them said “…and they had the name of the movie on the curtain when we walked in, it was SO Cool!”
So two questions for the rest of you: what is the intended purpose and best (most theatrical) use of the Ziegfeld’s second curtain, and don’t you think that if exhibitors got a clue about showmanship (and some advice on how to do it well) it would make a difference to today’s moviegoers?
Mr. Wise didn’t want the WSS overture firing through a closed curtain, so he asked Saul Bass to create an image for the overture so he could have the curtain open. What Bass created appears to be an abstract image that changes colors as a legit show would do with a show scrim. The genius of Bass' “show scrim” design was that it seemlessly transitions into the feature, where you discover what the image really is.
David M: I tried that link from your profile and it didn’t work.
Jeff, I heartily disagree. (that is if you mean that people -couldn’t- care less) Audiences don’t care because they have been given nothing to care about. They are used to crap because crap is all they have ever had. And careless venues with careless presentation have produced generations of careless patrons who don’t behave any better than they do at home because there is nothing special about the experience anymore.
The moviegoing experience has been downgraded terribly, but it is no excuse to use bad presentation just because everyone else does and the patrons don’t know any better. Have a look at the El Capitan. 3 different curtains, timed with music and light cues, and just opening them is a SHOW. People may not know what they’re missing but they sure think it’s cool when they see it.
Vito, we are devinitely birds of a feather. Love to see more of your comments on the new Roadshow message board that’s just begun elsewhere. I was prepping a theatre to open a while back and was coming up with some sort of theatre signature image to open the curtain on so we wouldn’t have any debate with the studios…
Hey, Howard. I used to live on the next block from the Worldwide, even while it was being built. Those cinemas were nice, albeit too out of the way and low-profile to get much notice. Never crowded when I was there. Now they’ve been gutted and adapted to off-bway legit houses.
I do remember the Ziegfeld back inthe old days, most of the time opening/closing the title curtain just a beat apart so you always saw them both. I always thought it was neat but didn’t know why. However I think I saw them use the title curtain as such for THAT’S ENTERTAINMENT 2. I remember the overture presented normally, and the beginning of the picture looking quite clear on the title curtain as it opened.
I remember thinking when CIneplex played the overture through the sheer curtain that they had a notion it would sound better if it weren’t firing through the main curtain. (I knew a director who did four roadshows and he specifically decided to have onscreen overtures for that reason) However overtures were usually put on the soundtrack at a higher volume to compensate for the curtain, and today’s digital sound can blast through Kryptonite..
I think if they can avoid revealing the blank screen through it, it would be nice to use the title curtain for it’s intended purpose. Any Ziegfeld staff who are interested in presentation, see if lights on the title curtain will wash out the outline of the screen behind it… I would guess from recent pictures that you have removed or disabled the center curtain lights to enable the cheesy slide shows. Can the curtain lights be put back on for classic presentation?
Bob: I actually noticed back then that the studio logos were just about the right legnth for opening a curtain. So much so that it seemed normal to me for them to play over a curtain. However, studios today are very picky. When I worked screenings at Paramount the projectionists were told the curtains had to be fully opened for the studio logo… But have you noticed pretty much every studio now has a very long reveal before the actual name comes on the screen (stars flying up to the mountain, searchlights and a turnaround to the Fox logo, etc.)? Just enough of a stretch that the curtain can be opened on the long reveal in time to see the studio name on the screen.
When lit from the front, a good title curtain should look like a solid curtain, but it should be translucent, (like a scrim) which allows you to clearly project a picture through it. The light from a projector would be bright enough go right through to the screen, so you get a pretty seemless transition from the curtain to the picture without it being broken up as it would on a regular curtain. You can close it completely over the end of the credits or intermission title, yet still see a virtually undistorted picture, then start to close the main curtain as the picture fades out..
Last time I was at the Ziegfeld for a roadshow film was probably the newly restored SPARTICUS, which was quite a while ago. The second (title curtain) then was practically transparent, so when they opened the main curtain for the overture, you could clearly see the screen through the title curtain, which pretty much ruined the effect. I think the curtain warmer lights were out at that point (mistake).
Has anyone noticed this lately? Can you still see the screen through the title curtain? I imagine it’s possible they might have replaced the second curtain with a thicker one by now… or maybe some strong lights focused on it from the front may make it less transparent.
If they still have that same sheer curtain, I would advise the Ziegfeld staff not to open the main curtain until the overture/entracte ends, or until the all the curtain/house lights are completely out.
Well yeah, just because Spiderman was only playing 4K in a couple places doesn’t mean 4K isn’t installed elsewhere… like you, I was convinced that Sony would have made some noise about installing 4K, but after asking around (and some posts on other forums, I learned that 4K is already in plenty of theatres. One chain bought a bunch of them about a year ago. How good could it be if there wasn’t any fanfare or big reaction?
I have also learned it costs an awful lot of money just to have a movie downloaded onto a theatre’s server. Studios only entrust their files to certain 3rd party tech companies who charge a bundle to download, then erase the film. So much that it’s prohibitive for a smaller cinema to book say, MGM classics in digital unless they have pre-sold a full house for several screenings.
Sub-Woofers:
The Ziegfeld’s original sound system was capable of similar or better sub-bass rumbling as Sensurround. When CLOSE ENCOUNTERS had its world premiere engagament there in 77, the scene where Richard Dreyfuss' truck shakes up and reverses gravity was accompanied by a thundering roar that I vividly remember as being better than the repetitive rumple pattern effect in EARTHQUAKE. When it stopped, the surprised audience roared in appreciation. There were no big subwoffer boxes anywhere, in fact no speakers were visible in the auditorium at all. Speakers can be very effectively heard without being seen.
Stadium Seating:
Cellboy is right about stadium seating being overrated and introducing its own set of problems by placing the projector at such a sharp angle that it keystones the picture.
Some of the finer older theatres were built with a steep slope to the floor staggered seats so that your sightline was above and between the heads of the people in front of you. This still allowed for the placement of the projector to throw straight to the center of the screen, resulting in a bright undistorted picture.
Building codes now prevent floor angles steeper than a couple inches per yard. Builders have resorted to steps and stadium style risers, but like any “new” and popular feature, many builders try to “show off” – making the risers higher than they need to be, requiring a severe projection angle. Picture quality suffers as a result. One cinema where the risers are not unnecessarily high is the Winnteka complex in Chatsworth, CA. You have absolutely clear sightlines without feeling like you’re sitting on the side of a mountain.
A severe projector throw angle isn’t necessariy shorter (draw a rectangle with a diagonal line from top corner to bottom – it is longer than a straight line). The sharp angle produces geometric distortion because the bottom of the screen is farther away from the projector than the top of the screen, meaning the picture will be spread out wider and less bright toward the bottom. Masking can hide the keystoned picture shape, but the picture does suffer.
I have a 1966 issue of Boxoffice magazine with an article about the new (back then) Arvada Plaza Theatre near Denver, with what was considered an innovative auditorium design: steep incline, staggered seats, projection level with the center of the screen. Sad that the same logical setup wasn’t considered by more exhibitors. Despite falling all over themselves to install the latest sound systems, they haven’t given as much thought to the picture.
As with most non-stadium seating, you could always improve the orchestra level sightlines at the Ziegfeld by pushing the rows farther apart and staggering the seats, (if they aren’t staggered already). Lowers capacity but improves sightlines. Not exactly a Sophie’s Choice for the money men.
4K Digital:
I was surprised to learn a few months ago that Sony’s 4K digital projectors have been running in a quite a few U.S. theatres for some time now without much fanfare. One of them is at the new Landmark plex in West LA. Haven’t seen one in action yet.
I saw the restoration of Sparticus when it first opened at the great Ziegfeld years ago. What impressed me first (after seeing the blank screen clearly through the title curtain all during the overture) was what a very bombastic score… the opening credits sounded more like a John Philip Sousa marching band than a film composer… but hey maybe that’s what he was going for.
It was certainly epic. And I love Tony Curtis’s intro. Each of the slaves interviewed is gruff and butch, then they come to Bernie, who says “I am a singer of so-wungs. And I also worked at da Kestle, ware i tawt dem da klessics.” No worse than John Wayne as Gengis Khan, just amusing.
It would be great to see Kirk Douglas introduce the film, showimg how hard he’s worked to overcome the effects of the stroke. He’s come a long way.
Mark: it’s not the curved screen that disorts the picture. It’s the severe angle of the projector throw. If the projector were in the back of the mezzanine, the picture would just wrap around the curve with no dip in the horizon line. Cinerama is not the only film format to use a curved screen. Todd-AO (70mm) was conceived for a screen just as curved as the Dome.
And AFI called back this morning. The movie in the Cinemama Dome will be Sparticus.
Thank you Geo. I’ve got friends who still live there, and quizzed one extensively about the place. Also have some feelers out for pictures of Schine’s Oswego Theatre and the late Carrols' Oswego Cinema.
I’d love to hear from someone who has been in the Oswego Theatre lately, to see how accurate my description was, and what the new attached screening rooms look like.
Meanwhile for info about lost Syracuse area theatres, the Kallet Genesee and Kallet Shoppingtown, check out www.CinemaSightlines.com Neither theatre is listed on CT, but the Syracuse community is still mourning the Kallet Genesee, it was a recent topic in the letters page of the Post Standard.
REndres: Please let me know 1) where one might reach you, 2) where we might find that article about projectionists where you spoke about curtain cues, and I’m still curious how you might present a roadshow at the Ziegfeld.
Vani, why don’t you look up the main office for Clearview CInemas to inquire about upcoming premieres at the Zieg?
Yeah, Peter, the fact that you care enough (and know enough) to try makes you a hero in our book.
How might one contact Mr. Endres by email?
Mr E: is the current title curtain at the Zieg too sheer to be used effectively, or can the curtain warmer lights prevent seeing the screen through it?
I knew that projecting things onto the curtain had been done before, thanks for the examples, I tried to do it for a screening at the DGA but the slide projector wasn’t bright enough. And yes, one adventage of digital projection is the ability to easily throw an image onto the curtain or to fill a ghastly naked screen for the walk-in.
The Bridge effectively uses a simple slide of their logo against a black background. (Black background means you never see the edges of the slide) ArcLight throws up this awful dirty blurry slide of nobodyknows what (their signature image is a pair of blurry hands trying to form a A – not artsy, just stupid) and the slides never fill the screen, so they look like exactly that, a dirty blurry slide of nothing recognizable. Instead of making the place look classy, it has the opposite effect, looks amateurish, or like a classroom with an overhead projector aimed at the wall.
Mr Endres: How would you present a roadshow at the Ziegfeld today?
And where may we read this times article on projection that includes talk of your use of the curtains?
Wow, Mr. Endres! …You know, I learned your name years ago in one of my early encounters with RCMH, (I think you were in the souvenir program) so you were a big name in my mind all these years. Reading your posts today is like being able to go back and interact with that great era of Showmanship. Someone should do a book of your stories, you’re like living history! (actually I know someone who would love to interview you) It’s a priviledge to hear from you. Please take good care of yourself, you are an invaluable resource.
(Hoping that comes off as sincere respectful appreciation rather than sycophantic ass-kissing)
Back to topic: does anyone have anything specific to say about the Ziegfeld’s second curtain, what it was put there for, and how it should be used today (particularly for a roadshow)? BTW, interesting what you get from a google search on the words “roadshow” or “cinema showmanship.” Wikipedia has a long definition of roadshow that’s generally accurate.
I really think that kind of showmanship can be appreciated by today’s audiences. In a conversation some time ago with an ArcLight manager about how their upper management has no clue of showmanship, I mentioned that projecting a slide of the feature’s logo onto the curtain as the audience arrived would be a nice touch. Many months later I heard people who had never experienced any kind of cinema showmanship talk enthusiastically about the Roadshow run of DREAMGIRLS at the Cinerama Dome… Several of them said “…and they had the name of the movie on the curtain when we walked in, it was SO Cool!”
So two questions for the rest of you: what is the intended purpose and best (most theatrical) use of the Ziegfeld’s second curtain, and don’t you think that if exhibitors got a clue about showmanship (and some advice on how to do it well) it would make a difference to today’s moviegoers?
Mr. Wise didn’t want the WSS overture firing through a closed curtain, so he asked Saul Bass to create an image for the overture so he could have the curtain open. What Bass created appears to be an abstract image that changes colors as a legit show would do with a show scrim. The genius of Bass' “show scrim” design was that it seemlessly transitions into the feature, where you discover what the image really is.
David M: I tried that link from your profile and it didn’t work.
DavidM, i can give you the link to the Roadshow message board (among others) by email.
Jeff, I heartily disagree. (that is if you mean that people -couldn’t- care less) Audiences don’t care because they have been given nothing to care about. They are used to crap because crap is all they have ever had. And careless venues with careless presentation have produced generations of careless patrons who don’t behave any better than they do at home because there is nothing special about the experience anymore.
The moviegoing experience has been downgraded terribly, but it is no excuse to use bad presentation just because everyone else does and the patrons don’t know any better. Have a look at the El Capitan. 3 different curtains, timed with music and light cues, and just opening them is a SHOW. People may not know what they’re missing but they sure think it’s cool when they see it.
Vito, we are devinitely birds of a feather. Love to see more of your comments on the new Roadshow message board that’s just begun elsewhere. I was prepping a theatre to open a while back and was coming up with some sort of theatre signature image to open the curtain on so we wouldn’t have any debate with the studios…
Hey, Howard. I used to live on the next block from the Worldwide, even while it was being built. Those cinemas were nice, albeit too out of the way and low-profile to get much notice. Never crowded when I was there. Now they’ve been gutted and adapted to off-bway legit houses.
I do remember the Ziegfeld back inthe old days, most of the time opening/closing the title curtain just a beat apart so you always saw them both. I always thought it was neat but didn’t know why. However I think I saw them use the title curtain as such for THAT’S ENTERTAINMENT 2. I remember the overture presented normally, and the beginning of the picture looking quite clear on the title curtain as it opened.
I remember thinking when CIneplex played the overture through the sheer curtain that they had a notion it would sound better if it weren’t firing through the main curtain. (I knew a director who did four roadshows and he specifically decided to have onscreen overtures for that reason) However overtures were usually put on the soundtrack at a higher volume to compensate for the curtain, and today’s digital sound can blast through Kryptonite..
I think if they can avoid revealing the blank screen through it, it would be nice to use the title curtain for it’s intended purpose. Any Ziegfeld staff who are interested in presentation, see if lights on the title curtain will wash out the outline of the screen behind it… I would guess from recent pictures that you have removed or disabled the center curtain lights to enable the cheesy slide shows. Can the curtain lights be put back on for classic presentation?
Bob: I actually noticed back then that the studio logos were just about the right legnth for opening a curtain. So much so that it seemed normal to me for them to play over a curtain. However, studios today are very picky. When I worked screenings at Paramount the projectionists were told the curtains had to be fully opened for the studio logo… But have you noticed pretty much every studio now has a very long reveal before the actual name comes on the screen (stars flying up to the mountain, searchlights and a turnaround to the Fox logo, etc.)? Just enough of a stretch that the curtain can be opened on the long reveal in time to see the studio name on the screen.
When lit from the front, a good title curtain should look like a solid curtain, but it should be translucent, (like a scrim) which allows you to clearly project a picture through it. The light from a projector would be bright enough go right through to the screen, so you get a pretty seemless transition from the curtain to the picture without it being broken up as it would on a regular curtain. You can close it completely over the end of the credits or intermission title, yet still see a virtually undistorted picture, then start to close the main curtain as the picture fades out..
Last time I was at the Ziegfeld for a roadshow film was probably the newly restored SPARTICUS, which was quite a while ago. The second (title curtain) then was practically transparent, so when they opened the main curtain for the overture, you could clearly see the screen through the title curtain, which pretty much ruined the effect. I think the curtain warmer lights were out at that point (mistake).
Has anyone noticed this lately? Can you still see the screen through the title curtain? I imagine it’s possible they might have replaced the second curtain with a thicker one by now… or maybe some strong lights focused on it from the front may make it less transparent.
If they still have that same sheer curtain, I would advise the Ziegfeld staff not to open the main curtain until the overture/entracte ends, or until the all the curtain/house lights are completely out.
Well yeah, just because Spiderman was only playing 4K in a couple places doesn’t mean 4K isn’t installed elsewhere… like you, I was convinced that Sony would have made some noise about installing 4K, but after asking around (and some posts on other forums, I learned that 4K is already in plenty of theatres. One chain bought a bunch of them about a year ago. How good could it be if there wasn’t any fanfare or big reaction?
I have also learned it costs an awful lot of money just to have a movie downloaded onto a theatre’s server. Studios only entrust their files to certain 3rd party tech companies who charge a bundle to download, then erase the film. So much that it’s prohibitive for a smaller cinema to book say, MGM classics in digital unless they have pre-sold a full house for several screenings.
Sub-Woofers:
The Ziegfeld’s original sound system was capable of similar or better sub-bass rumbling as Sensurround. When CLOSE ENCOUNTERS had its world premiere engagament there in 77, the scene where Richard Dreyfuss' truck shakes up and reverses gravity was accompanied by a thundering roar that I vividly remember as being better than the repetitive rumple pattern effect in EARTHQUAKE. When it stopped, the surprised audience roared in appreciation. There were no big subwoffer boxes anywhere, in fact no speakers were visible in the auditorium at all. Speakers can be very effectively heard without being seen.
Stadium Seating:
Cellboy is right about stadium seating being overrated and introducing its own set of problems by placing the projector at such a sharp angle that it keystones the picture.
Some of the finer older theatres were built with a steep slope to the floor staggered seats so that your sightline was above and between the heads of the people in front of you. This still allowed for the placement of the projector to throw straight to the center of the screen, resulting in a bright undistorted picture.
Building codes now prevent floor angles steeper than a couple inches per yard. Builders have resorted to steps and stadium style risers, but like any “new” and popular feature, many builders try to “show off” – making the risers higher than they need to be, requiring a severe projection angle. Picture quality suffers as a result. One cinema where the risers are not unnecessarily high is the Winnteka complex in Chatsworth, CA. You have absolutely clear sightlines without feeling like you’re sitting on the side of a mountain.
A severe projector throw angle isn’t necessariy shorter (draw a rectangle with a diagonal line from top corner to bottom – it is longer than a straight line). The sharp angle produces geometric distortion because the bottom of the screen is farther away from the projector than the top of the screen, meaning the picture will be spread out wider and less bright toward the bottom. Masking can hide the keystoned picture shape, but the picture does suffer.
I have a 1966 issue of Boxoffice magazine with an article about the new (back then) Arvada Plaza Theatre near Denver, with what was considered an innovative auditorium design: steep incline, staggered seats, projection level with the center of the screen. Sad that the same logical setup wasn’t considered by more exhibitors. Despite falling all over themselves to install the latest sound systems, they haven’t given as much thought to the picture.
As with most non-stadium seating, you could always improve the orchestra level sightlines at the Ziegfeld by pushing the rows farther apart and staggering the seats, (if they aren’t staggered already). Lowers capacity but improves sightlines. Not exactly a Sophie’s Choice for the money men.
4K Digital:
I was surprised to learn a few months ago that Sony’s 4K digital projectors have been running in a quite a few U.S. theatres for some time now without much fanfare. One of them is at the new Landmark plex in West LA. Haven’t seen one in action yet.
Gee Howard, any pictures of the ANC Union Square?
There is a CT reader who has had his eye on this property for a while…
Oops. that’s “showing.” I am a lousy typist… and I don’t even know da klessics.
I saw the restoration of Sparticus when it first opened at the great Ziegfeld years ago. What impressed me first (after seeing the blank screen clearly through the title curtain all during the overture) was what a very bombastic score… the opening credits sounded more like a John Philip Sousa marching band than a film composer… but hey maybe that’s what he was going for.
It was certainly epic. And I love Tony Curtis’s intro. Each of the slaves interviewed is gruff and butch, then they come to Bernie, who says “I am a singer of so-wungs. And I also worked at da Kestle, ware i tawt dem da klessics.” No worse than John Wayne as Gengis Khan, just amusing.
It would be great to see Kirk Douglas introduce the film, showimg how hard he’s worked to overcome the effects of the stroke. He’s come a long way.
Oh boy. Early morning typo. Cinerama Dome, not Cinemama Dome, which sounds kinda funny.
Mark: it’s not the curved screen that disorts the picture. It’s the severe angle of the projector throw. If the projector were in the back of the mezzanine, the picture would just wrap around the curve with no dip in the horizon line. Cinerama is not the only film format to use a curved screen. Todd-AO (70mm) was conceived for a screen just as curved as the Dome.
And AFI called back this morning. The movie in the Cinemama Dome will be Sparticus.
Yeah but with eleven films and 15 screens, what is showing where? I asked AFI and got no answer. Who gets the Dome? My guess is nobody.
Thank you Geo. I’ve got friends who still live there, and quizzed one extensively about the place. Also have some feelers out for pictures of Schine’s Oswego Theatre and the late Carrols' Oswego Cinema.
I’d love to hear from someone who has been in the Oswego Theatre lately, to see how accurate my description was, and what the new attached screening rooms look like.
Meanwhile for info about lost Syracuse area theatres, the Kallet Genesee and Kallet Shoppingtown, check out www.CinemaSightlines.com Neither theatre is listed on CT, but the Syracuse community is still mourning the Kallet Genesee, it was a recent topic in the letters page of the Post Standard.
Still growing but there are plenty of things to look at now… message boards and shop pages are coming.
True, was just hoping for one with HAIRSPRAY on the Marquee.