Hey Rob I have been thinking, it just seems to me that the Music Hall goes through an awful lot of trouble to present Digital projection. Dragging those projectors down to the Mwzz and setting them up there along with the potential for problems with such things as errors with the digital keys and the “robust†encryption, and the potential for trouble if the server is opened or connections are interrupted.
It just seems to me that the risks are high for failure. I know how many problems theatres are having with theses issues from my talks with the boys I know that are still in the business. Especially with Digital 3-D.
So here we are at RCMH with a rather important premiere and they are using film as the back up. My question is if why not just run the film and avoid any problems. Just deliver the 35mm print to the booth and let he boys run it as we did for so many years problem free. They even went so far as to mount the print on a platter which then made the film presentation subject to problems with speed control card failures and of course the dreaded brain wrap.
I can’t help but think since a 35mm print was used the movie could have simply been shown in 35mm, and if the people renting the space fearded the use if reel-to-reel projectuion they could have used a MUTT which is far more reliable than a platter.
Ask yourself this, how many people in that theatre even knew the movie was being projected digitally or would have noticed the difference had it been film.
A whole lot of nonsense if you ask me, between the use of the digital and running the film on a platter it’s as if they wanted something to fail.
In my day (oh no here I go again) we ran premieres and previews in 35mm or 70mm film reel to reel, and we played pictures far more important than “Sex in the City†and we did it with very little problem. No fuss no mess.
Rob,What a fasinating post regarding the handling of Digital media. My goodness how times have changed since I retired.
I must say I was not pleased to hear thet after all this time a platter finaly made it up to the Music hall booth. Somehow I did not mind the use of a MUTT but platters are the work of the devil :)
It makes an old mans heart feel good to know that at least the main booth was used and did not sit dark through the performance.
Please tell us more when you can I appreciate your info so very much.
Thanks JAlex, I completly forgot about all the fuss made over JR and “That Dance” as it was called. Jane’s “looking For Trouble” number was filmed mostly in long shot but the church would have none of it and said NO!
I was interested in hearing about Jane not going to the premiere.
I neglected to mention on my original ost about why 3-D died off.
Besides the projection proiblems peole wewere not happy with the glasses which were uncomnforatble in some cases caused headaches.
I think that may be how the CinemScope ad campain of “The Miracle you see without glasses” came about.
JAlex I wonder how long the 3-D version of “The French Line” lasted in St. louis before it was swithced to 3-D.
Do not be disapointed cause “The Robe” was never shown in 3-D and those green and red glasses were never used in major atudio releases during the 50s. Perhaps the ads for “The Robe” that read “The modern miracle you see without glasses” confused some.
The Robe was however shown flat in some areas, production had already started when Fox decided that this was to be the first film shot in CinemaScope. As a result filming continued in both scope and flat(1.37) for theaters not yet using Scope projection
As a been there done that projectionst during the 3-D phase of the 50s I can tell you the biggest problem and probably one of the main reasons 3-D died was the projection. Many pronblems plagued us breakdowns were frequent and people just tired if it all.
Point of fact, in 1954 “The French Line” premeird at the Criterian theatre in NY. It opened in 3-D (JR in 3-D need we say more)but as a result of the projection and print problems the 3-D was dropped and the theatre showed the picture in 2-D a few weeks later.
As somweone wrote there were too many 3-D pictures released, as a result 3-D equpment was improperly installed and there were not enough qualified projectionist to show the picture properly.
One of the probems with the 1950s 3-D was with the projection. We had many problems with sync motor breakdowns and improberly trained projectionists. In addition, since we did not have mylar stock back then, film breaks and sprocket damage were problematic and repairing the left eye print to match the damaged right eye print took patience and skill. When there was a sync problem or a film break resyncing the prints took time while the audience waited and fumed. The audience grew tired of the gimmick but even more tired of the breakdowns.
I have a question regarding the 5 track vs 6 track versions of WSS
My only experience with 70mm WSS was the full six track version. I know that the left center and right center tracks were no longer used for music/dialogue in 70mm films post Dolby, with the two tracks used for boom tracks for sub woofers and stereo surrounds. So I am assuming the original left center/ right center tracks remixed for the 5 track version? Surly the information on those tracks was not eliminated
Hi Rob and thanks for that.
The night I went to check out the theatre shortly after “Marooned†opened, the fella at the console did not represent himself as a union man even though I had introduced my self as a member of local 640 projectionist union from Long Island. He seemed to indicate that not only, as you said, was only one man necessary but that in fact the man “up there†was not even all that necessary at all which of course could not be further from the truth and got my gander up. All this was at a time when those of us in the profession of projection for a living were getting more and more sensitive to all this new fangled automation stuff, so I guess I went in there looking for a fight. Later I got to know Steve D rather well and I can just hers him telling management in a no doubt forceful tone â€You will still need two menâ€
We had a similar situation when “Fiddler†played as a road show in the early 70s in 35mm. Management felt the need for two men (which was always used for 70mm road shows) was no longer necessary. But the union prevailed and we ran that show in 35mm with two men in the booth.
it’s ok Stan,I take solice in knowing the boys in the booth are still there while the console is gone and the jackass who ran it
is probably an usher now.:)
No offense to ushers and the important job they do.
I look forward to that film.
Please try and include the people behind all those magnificent marquees which had to changed on almost a daily basis. They were a work of art so well thought out and attractivly presented show after show. I would walk the street from end to end just to admire them.
Hi Mark, yes I did move around a lot mostly putting out fires and training MDs. I have worked just abut every NA theatre in LI,NY and NJ. I opened a few of em as well.
Retired now but keep in touch with many of the boys.
Oh yes Bill I so remember that thing. When “marooned” opened I spoke with the guy running the thing. He basically ran he lights, sound levels and may have started the show from there. But he went to far when he said something along the lines of we barely need anyone in the booth anymore now. As a projectionist at the time and concerned about all this automation stuff I was a little shall we say sensitive to that remark Man did I give him a piece of my mind.
Oh my God, the curtain thing again.
Management, please put a big sign in the booth
CURTAINS MUST BE USED AT ALL TIMES!
If they are breaking down a lot for heavens sake get a pro in there to find the reoccuring problem and fix the darn things once and for all. I spent close to 60 years in theatres and sure they broke down but we got em fixed. As to a projectionist who needs to be instructed to open and close the curtains…
please, are you kdding me. I have said this before,in my day we would have rode him outta town on a rail.
Look, I understand by now that the curtain thing at this theatre is a lost cause but I feel better bitchin about it
There I feel better now. :)
In February 1953 “Bwana Devil” the first full length motion Picture in Natural Vision 3-D had its NYC premiere at Loew’s State.
The picture had its NYC premiere engagement simultaneously at TWO theatres— Loew’s State in Times Square and the Fox in downtown Brooklyn. Newspaper reviews mentioned only Loew’s State.
The Fox had about 900 seats more than the State. Variety reported a first week gross of $87,000 for the State, nearly breaking its all-time record set in 1949 by “Jolson Sings Again.” The State had a sliding price scale of 55 cents to $1.50. Variety gave no figure for the Fox, but said business was “socko.”
Normally I would not even dignify AGR’s comments with a response. However since my name was mentioned in the post allow me just say
I forgive his ignorance.
By the by I was able to reach one the boys I did the WSS Road show at the Syosset. He is 88 years young and happy retired and living in Arizona. While he had no positive memory of how the opening was handled he believed we would have ran the whistles with curtains closed. In fact he went on to say “There ain’t no way we exposed the white sheet, not even for Bobby Wiseâ€
He also reminded me that while instructions or requests for presentation of the pictures were generally honored there were times when we had to remind the film makers that their job is to make the pictures, and a damn fine job they did. However it was our job to project or present them in the atmosphere of showmanship that WE did so well.
Gary that was nothing short of outstanding.
Excellent job which had to have a been appreciated by all in attendance. It sorta gave me some of Bill’s goose bumps to hear a showman in action again.It’s the sort of thing we did in the glorious movie days of old which may be gone but thanks to you not forgotten.
Yes Gary I believe that is correct.
However, if a theatre used motorised curtains as most if not all did, the gearing or speed on the curtain motor would have to be adjusted for the WSS run. Secondly and most importantly it would have exposed a white screen which was taboo.
Is there no one that ran this picture in Roadshow besides myself that can chime in here.?
Hey Rob I have been thinking, it just seems to me that the Music Hall goes through an awful lot of trouble to present Digital projection. Dragging those projectors down to the Mwzz and setting them up there along with the potential for problems with such things as errors with the digital keys and the “robust†encryption, and the potential for trouble if the server is opened or connections are interrupted.
It just seems to me that the risks are high for failure. I know how many problems theatres are having with theses issues from my talks with the boys I know that are still in the business. Especially with Digital 3-D.
So here we are at RCMH with a rather important premiere and they are using film as the back up. My question is if why not just run the film and avoid any problems. Just deliver the 35mm print to the booth and let he boys run it as we did for so many years problem free. They even went so far as to mount the print on a platter which then made the film presentation subject to problems with speed control card failures and of course the dreaded brain wrap.
I can’t help but think since a 35mm print was used the movie could have simply been shown in 35mm, and if the people renting the space fearded the use if reel-to-reel projectuion they could have used a MUTT which is far more reliable than a platter.
Ask yourself this, how many people in that theatre even knew the movie was being projected digitally or would have noticed the difference had it been film.
A whole lot of nonsense if you ask me, between the use of the digital and running the film on a platter it’s as if they wanted something to fail.
In my day (oh no here I go again) we ran premieres and previews in 35mm or 70mm film reel to reel, and we played pictures far more important than “Sex in the City†and we did it with very little problem. No fuss no mess.
What are your thoughts?
Rob,What a fasinating post regarding the handling of Digital media. My goodness how times have changed since I retired.
I must say I was not pleased to hear thet after all this time a platter finaly made it up to the Music hall booth. Somehow I did not mind the use of a MUTT but platters are the work of the devil :)
It makes an old mans heart feel good to know that at least the main booth was used and did not sit dark through the performance.
Please tell us more when you can I appreciate your info so very much.
Thanks Rob
I am curious about how it was handled.
Such as are the Digital projectors still set up in the 1st mezz and was the film handled via MUTTS?
Digital I presume.
How is the presentation handled, lights curtsin etc.
Thanks Bob, that is interesting.
Having seen the picture in 3-D I guess I must have enjoyed those close ups but at my age have no memory of it :)
Thanks JAlex, I completly forgot about all the fuss made over JR and “That Dance” as it was called. Jane’s “looking For Trouble” number was filmed mostly in long shot but the church would have none of it and said NO!
I was interested in hearing about Jane not going to the premiere.
I neglected to mention on my original ost about why 3-D died off.
Besides the projection proiblems peole wewere not happy with the glasses which were uncomnforatble in some cases caused headaches.
I think that may be how the CinemScope ad campain of “The Miracle you see without glasses” came about.
JAlex I wonder how long the 3-D version of “The French Line” lasted in St. louis before it was swithced to 3-D.
Do not be disapointed cause “The Robe” was never shown in 3-D and those green and red glasses were never used in major atudio releases during the 50s. Perhaps the ads for “The Robe” that read “The modern miracle you see without glasses” confused some.
The Robe was however shown flat in some areas, production had already started when Fox decided that this was to be the first film shot in CinemaScope. As a result filming continued in both scope and flat(1.37) for theaters not yet using Scope projection
As a been there done that projectionst during the 3-D phase of the 50s I can tell you the biggest problem and probably one of the main reasons 3-D died was the projection. Many pronblems plagued us breakdowns were frequent and people just tired if it all.
Point of fact, in 1954 “The French Line” premeird at the Criterian theatre in NY. It opened in 3-D (JR in 3-D need we say more)but as a result of the projection and print problems the 3-D was dropped and the theatre showed the picture in 2-D a few weeks later.
As somweone wrote there were too many 3-D pictures released, as a result 3-D equpment was improperly installed and there were not enough qualified projectionist to show the picture properly.
One of the probems with the 1950s 3-D was with the projection. We had many problems with sync motor breakdowns and improberly trained projectionists. In addition, since we did not have mylar stock back then, film breaks and sprocket damage were problematic and repairing the left eye print to match the damaged right eye print took patience and skill. When there was a sync problem or a film break resyncing the prints took time while the audience waited and fumed. The audience grew tired of the gimmick but even more tired of the breakdowns.
Thanks Rob, I love that Blue Cross story, it’s the backstage fun stuff we rarely get to hear about
Easter 1955 click on picture to enlarge
View link
I wonder if I could ask REndres to retell the great story about the
color mix up of the Rockettes forming the cross.
hint: Blue cross :)
Thanks William for the very informative and interesting answer to my WSS sound question.
I have a question regarding the 5 track vs 6 track versions of WSS
My only experience with 70mm WSS was the full six track version. I know that the left center and right center tracks were no longer used for music/dialogue in 70mm films post Dolby, with the two tracks used for boom tracks for sub woofers and stereo surrounds. So I am assuming the original left center/ right center tracks remixed for the 5 track version? Surly the information on those tracks was not eliminated
Hi Rob and thanks for that.
The night I went to check out the theatre shortly after “Marooned†opened, the fella at the console did not represent himself as a union man even though I had introduced my self as a member of local 640 projectionist union from Long Island. He seemed to indicate that not only, as you said, was only one man necessary but that in fact the man “up there†was not even all that necessary at all which of course could not be further from the truth and got my gander up. All this was at a time when those of us in the profession of projection for a living were getting more and more sensitive to all this new fangled automation stuff, so I guess I went in there looking for a fight. Later I got to know Steve D rather well and I can just hers him telling management in a no doubt forceful tone â€You will still need two menâ€
We had a similar situation when “Fiddler†played as a road show in the early 70s in 35mm. Management felt the need for two men (which was always used for 70mm road shows) was no longer necessary. But the union prevailed and we ran that show in 35mm with two men in the booth.
it’s ok Stan,I take solice in knowing the boys in the booth are still there while the console is gone and the jackass who ran it
is probably an usher now.:)
No offense to ushers and the important job they do.
I look forward to that film.
Please try and include the people behind all those magnificent marquees which had to changed on almost a daily basis. They were a work of art so well thought out and attractivly presented show after show. I would walk the street from end to end just to admire them.
Hi Mark, yes I did move around a lot mostly putting out fires and training MDs. I have worked just abut every NA theatre in LI,NY and NJ. I opened a few of em as well.
Retired now but keep in touch with many of the boys.
I was Managing Director there for about 3 years if anyone has any questions
Thanks Bill, I must have mised something there. I read that thread and did not see anything I could respond to.
I will have another look, thanks
Oh yes Bill I so remember that thing. When “marooned” opened I spoke with the guy running the thing. He basically ran he lights, sound levels and may have started the show from there. But he went to far when he said something along the lines of we barely need anyone in the booth anymore now. As a projectionist at the time and concerned about all this automation stuff I was a little shall we say sensitive to that remark Man did I give him a piece of my mind.
Oh my God, the curtain thing again.
Management, please put a big sign in the booth
CURTAINS MUST BE USED AT ALL TIMES!
If they are breaking down a lot for heavens sake get a pro in there to find the reoccuring problem and fix the darn things once and for all. I spent close to 60 years in theatres and sure they broke down but we got em fixed. As to a projectionist who needs to be instructed to open and close the curtains…
please, are you kdding me. I have said this before,in my day we would have rode him outta town on a rail.
Look, I understand by now that the curtain thing at this theatre is a lost cause but I feel better bitchin about it
There I feel better now. :)
In February 1953 “Bwana Devil” the first full length motion Picture in Natural Vision 3-D had its NYC premiere at Loew’s State.
The picture had its NYC premiere engagement simultaneously at TWO theatres— Loew’s State in Times Square and the Fox in downtown Brooklyn. Newspaper reviews mentioned only Loew’s State.
The Fox had about 900 seats more than the State. Variety reported a first week gross of $87,000 for the State, nearly breaking its all-time record set in 1949 by “Jolson Sings Again.” The State had a sliding price scale of 55 cents to $1.50. Variety gave no figure for the Fox, but said business was “socko.”
View link
Normally I would not even dignify AGR’s comments with a response. However since my name was mentioned in the post allow me just say
I forgive his ignorance.
By the by I was able to reach one the boys I did the WSS Road show at the Syosset. He is 88 years young and happy retired and living in Arizona. While he had no positive memory of how the opening was handled he believed we would have ran the whistles with curtains closed. In fact he went on to say “There ain’t no way we exposed the white sheet, not even for Bobby Wiseâ€
He also reminded me that while instructions or requests for presentation of the pictures were generally honored there were times when we had to remind the film makers that their job is to make the pictures, and a damn fine job they did. However it was our job to project or present them in the atmosphere of showmanship that WE did so well.
Gary that was nothing short of outstanding.
Excellent job which had to have a been appreciated by all in attendance. It sorta gave me some of Bill’s goose bumps to hear a showman in action again.It’s the sort of thing we did in the glorious movie days of old which may be gone but thanks to you not forgotten.
Yes Gary I believe that is correct.
However, if a theatre used motorised curtains as most if not all did, the gearing or speed on the curtain motor would have to be adjusted for the WSS run. Secondly and most importantly it would have exposed a white screen which was taboo.
Is there no one that ran this picture in Roadshow besides myself that can chime in here.?