Kings Theatre
1027 Flatbush Avenue,
Brooklyn,
NY
11226
1027 Flatbush Avenue,
Brooklyn,
NY
11226
86 people
favorited this theater
Showing 576 - 600 of 1,564 comments
Hello Movie534
Yeah, this is going to be a big one. While some of my ideas may be good and could be a solution. The truth is it is going to take someone not only with a vision, but also with a very deep pocket.
The thing that a business plan reveals is that there are so many things that you don’t think about in terms of expenses. Just thinking off the top of ones head is impossible. Once you get all those figures down on paper you realize how expensive things are going to be.
My perspective building was an art deco theatre in Ohio. The building was selling for around $365k and at that time I knew I could easily sell my home and profit from that sale and then purchase the theatre. The trouble is that after fixing up the place, and prepping it for my needs, the project quickly bloomed to $500k and it would have been another $75k needed just to operate comfortably until break even. Needless to say, I was going to end up borrowing more than I could front.
The market was better then and the theatre didn’t need much work (as it was in current operation). But the problem was that my house didn’t sell for my asking price. So I was forced to abandon the project.
Could you imagine trying that now in today’s economy? Lenders are really tight now with their money.
Here in NY things are much worse than Ohio. Property values have fallen a bit, but you still have the problem of very high taxes. Think about what the property tax is on the Kings. More than through the roof.
Unlike the theatre I was looking into which didn’t need much work, the Kings is over three times the size AND it needs a full restoration. This will run into the millions just factoring the size of the building alone.
What the Kings really needs is a good benefactor and someone that would buy into a very good plan. It comes down to three things…if you have the plan, you have the money and you have the market, then you are good to go. That is no different if you are talking about a small 100 person theatre or one that holds 5000 people. It’s just that everything you need just gets bigger as the building gets bigger.
Geo
One more thing Geo, all your ideas are great ones, some maybe better than others, but I give you all the credit in the world for being innovative, and thinking both inside and outside the box. I just wanted to let you know that.
Hi Geo,
Yes I did drift off. The biggest problem I had was…money, which as you and many others stated is going to be the problem with the Kings. But, what we have in our corner now is interest, both private and political, at least local politicals. And thats all we need right now to at least dream.
Hello Ziggy,
I wasn’t aware the entire structure was torn down. I was told that the back part…the theatre auditorium was torn down, but the front part which was the original lobby and facade were original.
Actually before I became more business involved with theatres, I was one of those die hard people who believed in keeping these magnificent structures pretty much all original. But I do realize now after doing much homework for the project I was working on that you do have to make some changes in order to make better use of the space to generate more income. There is a way to tastefully do that and keep much of the building as original as possible.
Now a dinner/theatre restaurant is a good idea. As I said, I have even seen a theatre that had standard seating in the balcony and then the orchestra seating was replaced with more like a Cabaret seating. This area could indeed be reconfigured as well. The point is that it makes the space more flexible. In this manner, you could even cater out parties…another great source of income.
It boils down to balancing the project out with what you can do to make money with the building and how much can be preserved and kept intact (which you want to be as much as possible).
Geo
Hello Geo1, I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but it wasn’t most of the Paramount which was demolished, it was the entire theatre, including the facade. What’s there now is a replica of the original facade and marquee, and not a very good one either. Please tell me your not recommending that a good reuse of the Kings is to demolish the entire structure and then rebuild a budget version of the facade with a restaurant behind it, because that’s exactly what the “reuse” of the times square Paramount is.
Hello
Movie534:
Sounds like you left off on an empty thought about your plans to buy a theatre. You ended with a “but”. So what happened? Business plan told you something you didn’t like?
That is usually the case. It is also a reason why many people hate business plans because they sure can kill a dream real fast. But on the upside a business plan is just that, a plan. Without one would be a disaster in the making.
Anyway, the pictures I posted of the Paramount in NY is an extreme case of reuse and in that instance, most of the original theatre was demolished. But it does seem to be a nice use for what was left of the Paramount.
In this case you have a whole building and outside of disrepair, it still is intact. Having already established that the building is too large, it can be restructured in a manner to allow more use of the space but at the same time doing it in a tasteful manner that most of the building’s historic integrity remains intact.
With some of the space restructured, you could have space for other use within the theatre. You could have an area that is a dance studio and another area that you can expand on the concession area, or even have a small cafe. As you probably know from movie theatres, most of the money is to be made in concessions and people LOVE to eat. The lobby is huge…massive…big! Make use of that space. Put in a small store that sells related materials to your programs or events you plan in the theatre. Probably another area could be sectioned off to create a small art gallery.
So there you have it, that is four additional uses within the same area. That is five different things going on at the same time. That is making good use of the space.
So sacrificing some originality to preserve the rest of the building and its existence goes a very long way.
In the example I mentioned above, you now not only have a theatre, but an arts center.
This is just one idea I have running around in my head.
BTW, have you ever heard of the Latchis Theatre in Brattleboro Vermont?
If so, then you probably have a good idea of what I am talking about.
Geo
To Geo1…the solid plan and good financial backing says it all. I agree 150%. (as a side note, I too wanted to buy a theatre years ago, and also had one drawn up, but…)
and to TonyM, Thanks, I guess when Loews abandoned it 30 years ago, they took the projectors so they could use them at other locations. Its a shame.
And finally, that the deadline has been extended cant be bad news, so lets all hope.
Movie534 – On the tour last month, a couple of us did sneak up a stairway that leads to the projection booth. We found 2 rooms. The first was a storage room with a second door that leads to the attic catwalks. The other, which the gentleman in front of me saw was the projection booth. There was only the light from his flashlight and he said the room looked empty. I hope that answers your question.
ALSO:
Just got a e-mail from the EDC. There will be another tour on May 12th. The deadline for RFP’s has also been extended. Good News?
Hello
Movie534,
Multi-purpose is the way to go. I am NOT saying get rid of projection capability as that is still another use, but yeah, for something this size you are going to be looking at more live oriented programming. Going along the lines of good inexpensive entertainment would do it.
I am a bit indifferent on non-profits. Some work out fine, but many do not. Many ‘just hang in there’. Renovation would be a slow process as grants and such take time to go through. Non-profit is a constant on-going ‘beg for the buck’. Decisions take much longer because everything needs to be done in a committee. Again, it does depend on marketing and support. But I can say that going for profit with a huge benefactor funding the project would probably be the best and probably the fastest way to go. However, once again, it is the size of the building that is working against it.
A smaller building is easier to restore, maintain and has lower operating costs, so for a small local community theatre, non-profit shows it’s strong points.
The formation of a dual operation could also be possible in that the owners of the theatre is a separate company than the company operating it.
There are many different ways to go about it. But the biggest issue is still what are you going to put in the the theatre that is going to bring in enough income to cover the costs of renovation and thereafter the continued operation of the theatre? Also, will the required revenue be obtainable based on the fact of the income of the local populace?
It isn’t easy. I wanted to buy a theatre…I still do. There is WAY more involved than you think. Also on paper you are probably going to need much more starting capital than you think. It is this realization where most ‘start up’ restoration projects fail.
This isn’t a small town theatre here. This theatre is larger than most theatres on Broadway. Two to three times larger in fact. This is a tall order to fill.
You really really really need a good solid plan and you really really need good financial backers.
Probably if I were to set up a group to undertake a project like this, the first thing you need to do is gather information…lots of information. A purpose has to be created for the building, and that starts with market studies. Once you have a purpose then you have to address how people are going to get to your theatre. Finally you have to determine the condition of the building and what it will cost to renovate it.
Finally a business plan has to be put together with all of that information in addition to the costs of operation vs revenue. Only THEN could you go to prospective lenders or benefactors.
The bad economy isn’t helping things either because lenders are not so easy to part with their cash especially for a special function building.
Still if you can prove that a large entertainment venue will help the local economy in terms of job offerings and potential outside visitors, the town may give you MUCH information you need to put together a plan. Furthermore I have seen ENTIRE downtown areas become revitalized because of a good theatre project.
A big plus you do have in your favor is that this is a historic structure and unlike any other historic theatre, this one is part of a group of 5 unique structures that represented a dominant player in theatre history. While that in itself is not majoy, what IS a major deal is that all 5 Loews Wonder Theatres are standing, but only this one is not in operation. That is saying quite a bit for a cause to save the building.
But you have to think outside of the box in terms of planning a use for the building and in some cases some changes or sacrifices must be made.
Case in point:
/theaters/548
View link
Granted, this is an extreme scenario…but see what I am getting at?
Good day Geo1
I did question the projection booth, not so much for the day-to-day running of films, but as you suggested, and I have seen done, to promote multi-funtion use of the space. Being a projectionist and stagehand in a number of venues here in N.J., I can tell you that if the area is thriveing, and there is nearby parking, which there is, than there is no reason why stage shows, such as “Dora” or “Diego” or a symphany, or a weekend film festival, (see Loews Jersey) could not get fannies in the seats. Its all about how its run. And yes, while I agree the economy stinks right now, if a non-profit was formed, than grants and corporations could then be had for $$$$ and the Kings could be on its way back to glory. The most important thing is that it is not lost to the wrecking ball, as so many others have.
Hello,
DFC: Distance from the train station does pose a problem and obviously if the area isn’t that great (or safe), then that is double jeopardy. Even in a good area on a sunny day, many people do not want to walk far to a theatre. Now if the area has a regular bus or shuttle that would go from subways and trains in the vicinity of the theatre, then that would be a good thing. But I do agree that you do want to have good local programming to take advantage of the local populace and it does make things more difficult when working with a lower income group because they simply have less money to spend. As I said above, due to changing times and the expense required to restore the building, it could be well priced out of it’s market.
Much does depend on the surrounding population and how they take pride in their town (if they do) and how they view the theatre’s future. Even if the neighborhood is a lower/middle class, if they are a strong force, then just about anything is possible.
However, there are variables that are working against the Kings otherwise it would have been restored already like it’s sister theatre in the Bronx.
MOVIE534:
Your proposition of “fix it” is much easier said than done. I too want to see the building restored, but I see that you are thinking movies already by your interest in the projection booth. I can assure you that a single screen movie theatre that seats over 3000 people will never survive in todays economy. In my area alone there isn’t a single theatre with less than 10 screens. The Loews Paradise was divided into FOUR screens and it didn’t make it. Even if reconfigured for I-Max (which I doubt is possible), it is just too large. So movies are out of the question for this grand lady. You need something with much larger profit margins to work with. Obviously live entertainment would be a first choice.
BWAY:
You are correct. Given the number of years the building stood, I thought it was in much worse condition myself. In fact prior to a couple of years ago, I thought the building was long gone. So I was amazed to learn that all five of the Loews Wonder Theatres are still standing AND on top of everything, the Kings wasn’t divided down the middle like most theatres of this size were.
I would say that if the building was configured for multi-use, it could stand a greater chance of survival after restoration. One thing I have seen done in a classic theatre was that the entire ornamentation was restored to original and only the balcony seats were replaced. The entire orchestra section of seats were ripped out
and hardwood flooring put in. Tables and chairs were put in much like a cabaret. The stage was greatly extended into the area and the space was used for dancing competitions. Then I have seen for a different show a regular seating pattern.
Granted, it worked well for the theatre I mentioned because the floor had a very shallow slope. To me it was very unusual, but I mention it here because it shows some ingenuity in the restoration vision to allow the space to be reconfigured. A higher flexibility means a wider variety of uses. More uses means more money.
So I know that many gun-ho restorers want to see every nut and bolt restored in a building like this. Believe me, I like to see that too, but that is thinking blindly and it just can’t happen…especially in today’s economy. Keep in mind, beauty aside, do you know what it would cost to heat/cool a building that size?
It is a tough call and it is something I always run through in my mind as I said above. On one hand you want to see the place restored to its original splendor, but it wouldn’t be successful that way today. So the business side takes over and many times you sit there and wonder what the building could be used for to generate enough money to cover it’s restoration costs and operating costs.
Apparently a solution hasn’t presented itself or else the theatre would have been restored already.
But as for the pro-restoration people out there…I do very much agree. I love to see this building saved.
Geo
While it’s a shame it did get damaged…really, for being empty as long as it has, it really has faired well. Many theaters empty as long, and even shoter are/were in far more shambles than the Kings.
I wish some photos of the projection room could have been taken. As a projectionist of almost 33 years, I’m curious if the projectors are still there. My dad told me years ago that in this theatre, there were 3 projectors, instead of the usual 2. I don’t know if anyone could confirm this. And probably, if everything is still there, the old carbon arc lamps are there as well.
In a few years, when the Nets basketball team moves in, Brooklyn will be jumpin. You all see those photos from a few weeks ago. Its sad, the amount of water damage to this place. I’m from central Jersey, and even I agree, FIX the damn thing. It cant be lost. If it is run right, you’ll get the butts in the seats. This place has potential that hasn’t even been thought of yet. It has to be saved.
Well, this Manhattanite promises to make the trek to Flatbush once the Kings is up and running. I’ve already convinced friends to break out their passports for Jersey City. They were happy they did. I believe getting at least some of them to Brooklyn will be easy. I’m looking forward to it.
I’d expect that most patrons would arrive by car or by bus. Local public transportation is the heavily used B41 Flatbush Avenue bus and the little used B23 Cortelyou Road bus. The walk from either the Brighton line subway at East 16th Street is a bit long and not through the best areas. The walk from the Nostrand Avenue subway is a bit longer also through some rough area. For these reasons it’s unrealistic to think that many Manhattanites will venture to the Kings. If the city is serious and the Kings is brought back from the near-dead it will have to somehow be targeted at a lower middle class Brooklyn demographic, a difficult market. We’ll have to see what happens after 05/07/2008 to determine what the city’s intenetions truly are.
Hello
Bruce C. It is funny that you mention the Uptown in Chicago as it is made by the same designers. I wouldn’t go as far as saying the Kings is the MOST magnificent theatre in NYC. That would be open for debate. It certainly isn’t as nice as the Loews Paradise. BUT it nevertheless is a gorgeous theatre and it is worthy of restoration. I actually thought the theatre was in worse shape, but looking at exterior and interior pictures of the building, it looks to have faired pretty well given the number of years it was not in operation. Granted it will cost booku bucks to restore, but if a good application could be created for the theatre and you do have a good customer base you are marketing the theatre too, then something can be done. This is a rare case in which you DO have parking around the theatre and access to public transportation. This is a problem the Uptown faces in Chicago.
Another situation is that if the surrounding area dictates lower/middle working class (as C-Dan pointed out above), would the people in the area be able to afford the entertainment? Or on the opposite side of the coin, would the income be enough to support the renovations and restoration of the theatre. If you market outside of the neighborhood (which you will have to do with a building this size), then you have to take the quality of the neighborhood into consideration as well. In simple terms would your people feel safe in the surrounding neighborhood?
It does sound like from the information C-Dan presented that Kings seems to face a similar situation as the Loews Paradise did. It is in a predominantly hispanic area and the theatre did overcome quite a few obstacles.
Given the amount of people in the area, there is parking, and mass transit access there is a very good possibility something could be done here. Following the Caribbean programming is a good idea to cater to the local populace. But there is much to take into consideration in regards to local demographics and what they have to spend in terms of residual income. As it is times are hard now and more and more people are having less and less to spend.
Community programs could be a good way to generate some good local programming that people can afford. If the neighborhood is good, then you could every so often market larger events.
Mostly you have to look into what kind of money you can bring in the front door v.s. the renovation and continued operating costs of the theatre. If your projected figures having you running in the black and you recoup your renovation costs in a few years…then it would be a go.
Much business planning goes into an operation like this. It isn’t easy. But in a nutshell, you need to find something to put in the theatre that is going to generate a good profit and yet be classified to something the people can afford. That something has to generate a profit to cover renovation and operating costs. Finally, you need to get people to the theatre and if people are predominately coming by cars you need a place for them to park.
Given the nature of the area this theatre is in and the size of the building. You would need quite a few heads in on a project like this. This is something that goes well beyond the simple desire to restore a beautiful building.
All the beauty and meticulous detailing any restoration project would have on this majestic structure will not mean a thing if you can’t put people in those 3192 seats. It does take much time, money and careful planning if the theatre is to have a successful future.
Geo
As to the demographics of the area right around the Loew’s Kings. It’s in a predominantly working to lower middle-class Caribbean neighborhood. The neighborhood is full of 99 cents stores, nails places, chinese and carribean restaurants and hair salons. There is a thriving commercial area right around the theater – mostly lower-end stuff – but a large Staples, Stop & Shop and Old Navy Outlet have been operating seemingly successfully right next to the theater for many years now. There is a lot of parking right around the theater. Buses run up and down Flatbush and I think the closest train stop – the Q on Beverley Road – is the about 6 blocks west. This links the theater to Manhattan, Park Slope/Prospect Heights in Brooklyn and the neighborhoods to the south like Midwood and Coney Island. The neighborhoods of Ditmas Park and Beverly Square West just to the west of the theater are wealthier, ethnically mixed neighborhoods of victorian era houses. To the north, Prospect Lefferts Gardens is slowly gentrifying. In short, there are a lot of people around the theater and with easy access to it. Given the size of the carribean population in the area, it would probably make sense for the theater to present – among other things – carribean artists.
I will repeat I think the Loew’s Kings is the most magnificient theatre still standing in NYC even in its state of ruin. The actual size of the theatre is huge which is not reflected in its seating capacity due to the shallow balcony.If this theatre had been secured properly it would be in much better shape and not cost as much to restore and the city bares some of the responsiblilty. Along with the Uptown in Chicago the Kings is a must restore theatre and time is ticking. The restored Kings would be a point of pride for Brooklyn. If the City of Oakland which has 400,000 people can restore two 3000 plus theatres the Paramount and the Fox I think Brooklyn with a few million people could find the money to restore the Kings which has a giant parking lot behind it. I still say the City should put some seed money into the restoration and restore a section of the theatre to show people what it would look like to improve its curb appeal to interested parties.brucec
Jezz this really was an awesome theater:
http://tinyurl.com/5v2uq2
http://www.planetplg.com/images/loews-stage.jpg
And today:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marioletto/278380160/
I does irk me very much that even in a metropolis such as NYC that a use for this magnificent structure (that preserves its integrity) can’t be found. It is a constant battle I go through in my mind every time I see a beautiful theatre like this. One side is the preservationist, but on the other side is that all important business aspect.
It is hard to believe that through time it is the very size and grandeur of these old picture palaces is what is working against it today.
I don’t know if someone is working on something in regards to this theater. I certainly would hope so.
Geo
I don’t know the demographics surrounding this particular area. But I am very well aware that a theatre is a business and certain elements must be in place for it to succeed as such. First thing I look at is the parking and mass transit. People have to get to the place and if parking or transit is a problem…then it would make saving an old theatre a very hard proposition. Second issue is the building’s use. Strangely enough, most die hard preservationists overlook this very important detail. It is obvious that something this size wouldn’t work as a movie house any longer. But it could as a live venue. Key things to look for are other competing theatres in the area. Sometimes searching for an alternative use that perserves much of the building’s past could be looked into. As it is, two of the other Wonder Theatres have new life as a church. A different performance venue, such as a dance hall or dinner theatre could be explored. Brooklyn’s proximity to Manhattan and the transit system should support the numbers. But again, without knowing the demographics of the area, it is hard to tell. Many good heads are needed to come together on something like this. It would be a terrible loss if this building just continues to sit and deteriorate.
Geo
Hmmmm,
I just looked at the aerial shot of the theatre. There is quite a bit of parking around it with two large fields. Probably private lots, but if something could be worked out…
But still 3192 seats is a tough order to fill, it is a pretty big place.
Hello Tony,
Thank you for those pictures. I came across them by accident when I was looking up something on the Valencia.
I am amazed that the Kings does look like it is in very restorable condition and I believe this is the only Loews Wonder Theatre that is not in operation. I know that two are being used as churches and two are being used as rightful theatres.
I didn’t think too much of the Kings, but now that I have seen the inside I am very much hoping this building gets restored too. I saw what they have done with the Loews Paradise and it words alone cannot explain the sheer beauty of that theatre.
I am hoping that someone can put good use to their theatre. Then at least all 5 of the Wonder Theatres would be in operation. I actually was lead to believe the Kings was in worse condition than this, but it isn’t. I hope it will be saved.
Geo
Our work may be cut out for us folks, and those pictures Tony really make that statement, they’re great.
Here is a link to the pictures I took on Monday. Sorry I got a little crazy in the mechanical room in the basement but listening to Bruce’s story about how the A/C worked just made me want to document as much as I could. A couple of us went up to the hallway leading to the projection booth but we were called back. I did get a shot of the doorway that leads to the catwalks above the auditorium. Shooting in the auditorium became tough due to all of the dust that was stirred up by people walking around. All I got were reflections of the dust particles. I hope you like them.
View link