Kings Theatre

Luis Vazquez on August 3, 2008 at 10:14 am

I agree with Warren. The current state of the economy has to be affecting the viability of certain proposals. However, this theater is just too important to just write off and say that it should be torn down because no one will save it. While it is true that it has sat unused for almost 30 years, no one has said that it is not structurally sound. The city did reinforce the walls and ceilings and the only sttructural damage appears to have been the retail space fronting Flatbush Avenue which has, in fact, already been torn down.

I think this theater is going to need an angel that can provide a grant/donation to jump start this project. If my memory serves correctly, the city has absolutely said that they would contribute capital funds for any renovation of the Kings. What they won’t do is provide operating funds. The theater will have to pay its own way once it’s up and running.

I refuse to give up hope for this theater which, in my opinion, is one of the two most beautiful theaters in the country (the other being the Uptown in Chicago) that is sitting abandoned and unrenovated. There is now movement at The Uptown and we’ve seen the Paradise in the Bronx and The Jersey in Jersey City (other formerly abadoned Wonder Theaters)returned to their old grandeur. The Kings will have a happy ending……someday!

nhu on August 3, 2008 at 8:58 am

It’s now 2 months since the RFP deadline. I’ve seen nothing in the papers or online about the Loew’s Kings. If we don’t hear anything by the end of September then this project has to be considered as not viable. The theater is in such poor shape that it might not make any economic sense to rehabilitate it. Sadly I can see where it may have to be torn down within the next few years for safety reasons. It’s been barely maintained for over 30 years.

uncleal923 on June 4, 2008 at 10:21 pm

The only thing I can say is that I hope it comes through

jflundy on May 19, 2008 at 10:57 am

The Suffolk Theater in Riverhead was constructed in the late 1930’s to show movies and was not set up for Vaudville. You may be thinking of the old Music Hall which has been restored or the long gone Riverhead Theater on west Main Street, that was located next to the corner bank, before it was torn down forty or more years ago. It may be that the Suffolk has been altered with a bigger stage, dressing rooms and necessary lighting and rigging, etc. since renovations began some years ago, but when I lasted saw a movie there before it closed, there was no facility for Vaudville.

jukingeo on May 19, 2008 at 7:15 am

Hello Gustave,

Seems like you are very much familiar with Long Island. I am a Long Island person myself. I am very familiar with the Patchogue Theatre project. That theatre had a huge push behind it, which was the theatrical company “Gateway Playhouse”…of which they do have their own facility but pushed to restore the Patchogue Theatre’s restoration to have a larger venue. While Gateway no longer has financial control over the Patchogue Theatre, they do continue to host events there. The Patchogue is very successful due to Gateway because Gateway is a professional theatrical company and they mostly do Broadway shows and musicals. There aren’t many companies that do that here on the island. Anyway, there is a need for theatres on Long Island. The sad thing is that most of the larger movie houses that could be converted to live theatre, have long since been either destroyed or ‘absorbed’ into shopping centers. Due to the suburban nature of Long Island, many older theatres were part of strip malls, shopping centers and main street thoroughfares. Needless to say, just about all were sitting on valuable property. Once the theatre wasn’t profitable anymore, it closed and it was either demolished or transformed into a retail outlet. Ironically, by me the old RKO Theatre and the North Babylon Theatre both have become Blockbuster Video stores.

Geo

jukingeo on May 18, 2008 at 12:06 pm

Hello Gustave,

I would agree. But if you follow my posts you can easily see that the space could be reconfigured and still keep at least 85% of the building’s originality and grandeur intact.

From what I also understand the Kings has a very large basement and that could reconfigured for alternative functions or could even expand the backstage dressing areas and storage areas.

I can also see putting in TV feeds as well for broadcasting live events…but that is a given anyway.

There are many ways a building this size could be transformed into a very functional community arts center and if it is planned carefully, not much has to be altered to deter from the building’s original appearance. So the grand lobby, the nice balcony seating, the ceilings and proscenium areas can all remain intact and be fully restored.

The basement, lounges, and other areas of less importance could be altered for other functions as I illustrated above.

It is a very big project and beyond my capability in both planning and finances.

What amazes me is that even though this building hasn’t been in use for 30 years, the structure overall faired much better than I thought. It is a very good example of a Rapp & Rapp designed structure (of whom also designed Chicago’s famous Uptown theatre which is also still standing, but not in operation).

Anyway, I do hope the Kings gets a new life and is restored. It would be a testament to theatre history that all of the Loew’s 5 Wonder Theatres remain intact for future generations to enjoy.

Keeping that in mind, a nice historical theatre tour could be planned to visit all 5 theatres (since they are all roughly located in the same area). That right there is another way to drum up business for the 5 theatres as a whole.

Geo

jukingeo on May 17, 2008 at 11:12 am

Hello Ziggy,

The situation for the other theatres were different. One of the large pluses regarding the Paradise (which is in a not so good neighborhood) is that they DO up the security in the area when an event is taking place. Thusfar I have not heard of any incidents at the theatre during an event.

I am a bit disconnected from news on the Jersey City Theatre apart from it’s background. But the point I am making is that every location is different and any problems in that particular area must be overcome whether it be dealing with a low income clientel, poor parking conditions, and filling a very large place with enough people to keep the doors open.

In short, a business plan that works for one area (even though similar) will not necessarily mean it will work in the next. Some types of companies it is very easy to work off of a “model” plan..such as you can with a movie theatre, but a theatre like this is a different ball game even though it is similar in history and size as both the Jersey City and Bronx locations.

I can say that if you been to a dinner theatre where they actually served you the main course while you are trying to watch the show, then you attended a dinner theatre that was not really run well.

I would NEVER serve an entree during the main event. What I would probably do is have alternate entertainment during dinner and once dinner is done, everything is cleared away and then the main show starts. As for more comfortable seating, that can be arranged so when people are done eating they can kick back and relax. Obviously a standard banquet chair is no good.

Also keep in mind, I am depicting ONE of many uses for the space. The point I am making is that it is probably not a good idea to with a standard chair “bolted to the floor” scenario. Thus one evening you can have a dinner theatre event and the following evening rearrange the space with ‘normal’ theatre seating.

Here is another scenario: What if you want to host a fashion show? Normal theatres are not good for this because of the runway…which runs lengthwise and people have to crane their heads over in one turned direction all the time. Can one say neck-ache??? With a flexible seating plan, the seats can be arranged around the runway.

This stems to the next scenario. What about a dance show? You want the people to get as close to the performers as possible. So you extend the stage into the ‘normal’ seating area. Put your orchestra in the back of the real stage and then seat your guest in a ‘U’ shape around the stage. I am sure you have seen “Dancing with the Stars”. That is what I am talking about.

There are many many many options to alternate seating and increasing the programming flexibility can ensure the theatre survives.

Like I said, it is going to take a really really really smart business person with a really really good plan. Then comes the money to pull the project off.

Ziggy on May 5, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Hello Geo1

I know you didn’t make the comment about public transportation, it was J.F. Lundy. I should have referenced the comment. Sorry.

I’m not sure the situations were different in the Bronx and in Jersey City. In both cases (especially the Bronx) people commented more than once that a theatre could never make a go of it in that neighborhood, yet they are. Not much of a go I’ll admit, but they are open and functioning.

This is almost unrelated, but, I wasn’t saying it would be annoying to watch a show while eating dinner, but that it would be annoying to watch a show from which I had eaten dinner. It’s just not comfortable to sit in a dining chair for that long of a time, and then your dealing with the noises of the audience that hasn’t finished their food, are playing with the cutlery, or are feeling free to make conversation because of the less formal atmosphere of being seated at a table. I just don’t like dinner theatres. I think they’re icky. Neither fish nor fowl.

Ziggy on May 5, 2008 at 9:39 am

Hello all,

I just skimmed the above comments, so please forgive me if I don’t make perfect sense.

geo1, I didn’t mean that the theatre couldn’t be reused for non theatrical purposes at all, just that the least invasive approach would be the best. As far as a 3200 seat theatre not making a go of it in a bad neighborhood, that’s just what the Jersey and the Paradise are doing.

Tearing out seats and putting in tables always seems to be one of the ideas that pops up, but the few theatres I’m aware of where this has been done have all wound up going belly up after the novelty wears off. I don’t know about you folks, but the thought of trying to concentrate on a theatrical performance while seated at a table where I’ve just had a meal is annoying.

One obvious adaptive reuse would be to rent out the lobbies and lounges for receptions, parties, and meetings. I think this would be a profitable venture, especially nowadays with all the “dream wedding” crap that an unending string of bridezillas want to put their loved ones through. What other venue could match the grandeur of a movie palace lobby?

Forget public transportation? In New York City? I would think access to subways and buses would be a selling point.

Anyway, If I’ve repeated anything or not made sense then I’m sorry. As I said, I’ve only skimmed the above comments because I don’t have much time at the computer today.

jukingeo on May 4, 2008 at 5:02 pm

Hello

Tony M. Yes, the basement is one huge area that could be sectioned off for other functions. It could even be expanded for use as updated dressing room areas. In terms of patron usage, guess where you could cut down the number of seats AND still at least retain 85% of the original look of the theatre?

Remember what I said about the Latchis.

I agree with everything you said except for movies. While I would agree not to pull out the projection equipment, the only thing that you could do with movies is just have something as a ‘filler’ or if you had another event.

For example, years ago when I saw shows at Radio City Music Hall, they had a movie first. Granted the live show wasn’t over 2 hours long as a live performance is today, but that could be a good think in a case of having a movie/live package. You could have a live show that is a little over an hour long and then have a movie preceding that.

I think another thing that would help is if some kind of organ is put into the theatre. Usually a theatre like this had an organ to begin with. The organ prelude at Radio City is always a treat. The theatre in Ohio that I wanted to buy also had an organ (not pipe mind you it was electronic).

As you can see really for little extra cost you could create a nice show for people.

It does boil down with who is doing the programming. Having multiple events during a theatrical event will give the people a good sense that they are getting a good bang for the buck. Plus if they are in the theatre longer, they will want to get something larger to eat or drink at the concession stand.

But really, that is the only way I can see how you can incorporate movies. Remember, the movie companies are hogs and they just take way too much of the percentage that bring in at the front door. Movies simply do not make money. Since you don’t have quantity working for you in a case like this (meaning a mulitplex), the best you can do is increase the quality or value.

Hello JF Lundy,

Expanding the stage out would also be a way to increase the performance space while reducing the extra seating. This would be a good idea if I were to go with a variable or cabaret seating plan. This way it would give you the option to expand the stage out into the audience space and this is what is well liked for dance shows as it would put more people closer to the stage area.

I can see that you are also following my thinking about having flexibility enough to have the theater double as a catering facility as well.

You do have to face it that theatre seating is expensive and if an alternative approach is taken, you lessen the seating costs (if you only redo the balcony), but if put tables and chairs in the main orchestra area and of course have cooking facilities the number of opportunities presented for use are tremendous. Catering, dinner theatre, dance hall, even presentations and exhibitions. All of these are tremendous money makers that would only require about a 15% to 20% physical restructuring of the building outside of it’s original design. Everything that makes the theatre grand would stay intact. The proscenium, the ceiling, the balcony, the grand entryways the beautiful views of the lobby ceiling, and just about all of the decorative fixtures could very well be restored.

There would be one major alteration and if done tastefully, most wouldn’t even know it.

Just check out the Latchis Theatre in Brattleboro Vt and everything will become clear.

As for your transportation ideas…they would be good IF the theatre was located in an upper class area. If so then it would be possible to work things around…but remember you are talking about a lower-mid working class area. Putting a traditional trolley line in running down a major road in Brooklyn will most certainly require tons of paperwork and red tape to go through. I personally don’t think it will. However, it is very possible to have old time buses that look like trolleys service the area from the train station to the theatre. The town could help foot the bill for this service as it would benefit the theatre and any other business that would open as a direct result of the renovation of the theatre. Personally I think the city would approve of the buses more than an actual trolley line. The buses also wouldn’t require alterations to the street either. So in that aspect you get your “trolley” line without all the major to do about having a real trolley installed. Believe me, I would prefer an electric railway, but I don’t think that is going to fly anymore in the city of NY. If the theatre was in an upscale area of town then things may be different.

You know the more I think of it, there are many people here that do have great ideas and if only some private investors would be lending an ear here I am sure that some good ideas could come forth that could potentially save this wonderful structure. Sure some compromises must be made, but there are ways to increase the revenue capabilities of this building. Tony M says the building has a huge basement and that definitely can work to the theatre’s advantage.

Anyway, I would love to talk more…but I have to run.

Geo

jflundy on May 4, 2008 at 3:30 pm

The Kings has a very large orchestra, divided lengthwise about half way to the stage by a lateral aisle about 12 foot wide and brass railing.

All seating forward of this asile could be yanked and the floor leveled to the elevation at the foot of the stage area. A decorative brass plated grillwork could control movement with gates at the dividing point. This would still leave about 2300 seats with excellent sight lines to stage and screen.

The new area could be fitted with dance floor and tables and operated as a high tone catering hall for weddings, dinners, etc. The kitchens, service areas, and small dining rooms and lounges with modern rest rooms of adequete capacity and legal compliance could be placed there.

The rest of theater would be restored as built. It would serve as a magnet to lure business for the catering and also provide venue for live and film events when catering for civic and social events was not booked. The problem of drawing in people to this site is a matter of promotion and transportation.

Forget public transport. Limos and fancy bus delivery from secure parking areas within 30 minutes drive time is the way to go. A new trolley line from the old Sears parking areas would provide a means of short range transport from limited local parking resources, but cost would put this in phase 2 if operations are a success. A reproduction old time trolley based on 1920’s designs can be had for about $750,000.00 dollars. Track and overhead wire would run about $1,2000,000.

jukingeo on May 2, 2008 at 9:43 pm

Hello Ziggy,

The point that I was making is that as a theatre alone it probably will not be successful as a business. If you are one of those nut for nut bolt for bolt restoration enthusiasts, I can tell you right now, the theatre would fail. There is a reason why you don’t see 3200 seat theatres any more. Even for live shows that is a tough order to fill.

There is a way to restructure the space, still keep much of the building intact AND still use the bulk of it as a theatre. However, other profitable entities must be incorporated into the renovation if it is to survive.

Don’t forget with rising gas prices you more then ever have to consider the local populace and as was pointed out earlier that populace is lower to middle class. So we are talking about people with not much residual income. So the only way to take up the slack on an expensive renovation the Kings requires is to restructure the space.

By restructuring, I don’t mean tearing out everything that made the building special and create offices. God knows we have enough confounded office space already. But a full entertainment facility…an arts center. Now that is what I would be shooting for. So you can have your theatre in the main part of the building, but also have other space that could be utilized for other arts interests. The more you have going on, the more people you have coming in your front door. When dealing with people with lower residual income, we are talking a case of QUANTITY. What you can’t make in terms of price you have to make in another form.

To put it in a simpler form. Say for example the costs of renovation and operation dictates a charge of $40 per head. Now if your market research tells you that your paying public will want to see a show that is $20. What are you going to do? Yeah, you have to take up the slack elsewhere or else you will not have a business to run and I am telling you now that a bolt for bolt restoration on a 3200 seat theatre is going to be a very tough order to fill.

Ok, so where do you take up the slack? Well for one, you can get rid of the less profitable seating, cut your expenses and use that space for something else. So this way you have a theatre that has all good seats and you can re-utilize the newly aquired space for something else.

Think about that for a while. If you wanted to keep as much of the theatre original as possible, but need to make extra space to create a multi-functional facility, where would you do it?

The trouble is that many people put their hearts out on the line and want to see a beautiful building like this be restored bolt for bolt, and even be used for movies. But many of these same people don’t understand the business side of things. I too was once a bolt for bolt restoration type person…but when I wanted to buy my own theatre, I realized quickly that there is a business side to things that must be addressed and planned for properly and that is where the fine line is drawn and I continually ask myself, how much of the building can I restore to original v.s. the need to run a business out of that space.

Yes, I do want to see the Kings run as a theatre again, but I can tell you that it cannot have anywhere near it’s original capacity. Dealing with local demographics I can pretty much say right off the bat the only way the Kings will survive is if it is a multi-functional facility, but yes, being first and foremost, a theatre (mostly for live performances).

Geo

RobertR on May 1, 2008 at 6:43 pm

To Geo1…the solid plan and good financial backing says it all. I agree 150%. (as a side note, I too wanted to buy a theatre years ago, and also had one drawn up, but…)
and to TonyM, Thanks, I guess when Loews abandoned it 30 years ago, they took the projectors so they could use them at other locations. Its a shame.
And finally, that the deadline has been extended cant be bad news, so lets all hope.
posted by movie534 on May 1, 2008 at 8:39am

If you look many posts ago I linked some movie clocks that show the Kings was re-opened twice since Loew’s closed it and independantly run.