I was a projectionist at the Park from the mid-1960’s until the “slaughter” as I refer to the twinning of it. I remember the kiddie shows as I worked there most weekends. I thought it was a very nice movie house and wished I had the idea of shooting pictures of the interior/exterior. I took it for granted, but remember those days in the projection booth.
I don’t remember a smaller screen behind a widescreen, but this part may have been removed by the early 1960’s. Remember, movie screens had holes in them to allow the sound to travel through. Carbon-arch lighting was used and 50% of it was lost because of the holes.
I had to go backstage on several occasions and would see the “images” on the back wall as they passed through the holes. I never noticed a screen in back of the one used and it would have been unpractical because of the sound problem. Believe it or not,
the maximum watt output in those days was only about 25 watts; the acoustics of the building carried the sound throughout the auditorium. Theaters were built like that since the days of the “talkies.” Today, with high-power amps, all “shoe-box” auditoriums, as I refer to Multiplexes (I hate them) are designed to
absorb sound waves so there will be no acoustic reflections; in other words, the walls are “dead.” Add to this the lack of a curtain, a 4000-watt Xenon light bulb versus the 25K carbon arch, lack of a projectionist, and one misses the “good old days” of excellent movie presentation in an atmospheric, live acoustic auditorium.
I videotaped some sort of “Festival” on Main Street in 1982 and remember a Radio Shack being close to the former El Rey. I could swear the name of the theater then was “Main Street Cinema.”
You are correct, sir about the El Rey being close to the “Creamery” as the old Greyhound Station was known. I took a few pictures of the place before it was demolished in 1974. It was not aross the theater, but from the El Rey, a couple of buildings north to Civic Drive (which was the ONLY way to get do downtown Walnut Creek in the 1940/1950’s area) and across the street.
Does anyone know when the lovely marquee/facade was ruined by that flat front similiar to the fate of the Enean? Also, is anyone aware of pictures of the auditorium of the El Rey? That was a nice theater. I have a couple of photos of the exterior.
That is the exact photo I was referring to. There were two photos of the theater in the “Movie Palaces” (still available from Amazon.com – not a promo) book – the other was a nighttime photo of the exterior.
Does anyone have a DAYTIME photo of the exterior – I would love to see it. Referring back to the photo Ken MC posted, either that
interior shot was taken with an extreme wide-angle lens or the screen was able to show movies with an aspect ratio larger than 235:1. If there are any more photos of the theater, including the lobby, exterior, etc. I would love to see them. Too bad this theater is gone.
I have written to the management of the Atlanta Fox to suggest they solicit the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences to have at least ONE year of the DAYTIME emmy awards at the Atlanta Fabulous Fox.
That would serve two (2) purposes:
(1) Allow the entire country to see the interior of this beautiful theater
(2) Spare the public from seeing that awful sorry-excuse Kodak Theater in Hollywood which has NO atmosphere what-so-ever.
If they could host the daytime EMMY awards at Radio City Music Hall for years and for the past two years have them at that plain-boring
Kodak Theater, which is much smaller than the Atlanta Fox, why don’t they have at least one year in a beautiful theater worth seeing. I understand the FOX ATLANTA also has 2 ballrooms which could accomodate the ABC and CBS parties afterward. (NBC has dropped out of the Emmy Awards).
LET’S ALL ROOT FOR A NATIONAL TV PRESENTATION IN THAT BEAUTIFUL PLACE! The “Mighty Mo'” could entertain the audience between commercial breaks.
Also, I met you a couple of times. You won’t remember me because there were so many people in line.
In the San Francisco Bay area, there are 4 magnificant installations you did (you were still active with your company then):
First Presbyterian Church – Richmond CA 1965
First Presbyterian Church – Concord CA 1977-78 (I met you at that meeting when the church approved the renovation of the organ)
First Presbyterian Church – Lafayette-Orinda (???) magnificant sounding organ!
The Mormon Tabernacle in Oakland
First Presbyterian Church in Walnut Creek (1992) I again shook your hand and told you I really liked that organ better than the previous Cassavant-Feres which, unfortunatly, burned down with the building.
I am very happy with your interst in both theaters and of your magnificant organs. I am a professional organist myself, holding a Master’s Degree in organ.
My passions are (1) trains, (2) organs) (3) theaters….hence my name “Trainmaster.
I assume you are interested in the latter two – I’d love to communicate with you via e-mail. Just send a message to me
Warren – I will write you privately since you gave your e-mail address. I DO appreciate very much your comments and information!
I also enjoy haering from the rest of you on theater topics.
And, thanks to you, Mr. Apple, for responding. Yes, I did meet your father a couple times as well at the Paramount. A fantastic gentleman! I can only imageine (from up above he is looking down) he is very pleased that the Paramount now has a 4/33 rank WurliTzer instead of that Rodgers and that the S.F. Fox organ he loved so very much is playing again for the public at the El Captain. Too bad they couldn’t bring it up to Oakland and install it in the Fox for their October 2008 debut! That organ WAS from the Bay Area, and really belongs there! However, it is still great to be able to see and hear it again. A celeste rank was added to make it a 4/37. Kudos to the Disney Company to restoring the appearance of the organ to comply with the original appearance. George Wright and Everett Nourse would have been pleased.
Has anyone heard of the possibility of the “Farewell To The Fox” records being available on CD? I know the Gothic label (which specializes in classical recordings) has the rights and is re-issuing the George Wright theater organ recordings. How odd for a label like Gothic, but with their top-notch quality, how fortunte!
I was shocked when I received the Gothic Catalog and saw the George Wright CD’s available.
Kindest Regards to all. Please excuse my spelling errors – I can’t see that well and this print is SO small!! Guess I am getting old (aren’t we all?)
Old organists never die – they just lose their wind!
If so, I would like to know the titles, so I can search for them!
Maybe some are still in print, manybe not-but used copies do show up.
I certainly would appreciate any information you have on your titles.
I collect theater books.
I also assume you are a member of Theater Historical Society – I wonder if this is a way they could reprint sold-out copies of Marquees and Annuals? I could call them be wondered if you knew.
Yes, it is sad to say that due to these copyright laws, probably no more new pressings of the classic Kauffman book will be released.
That is sad for many, but good for those who have a copy that is very scarce and valuable.
If I am correct, your father managed the Oakland Paramount after the demise of the Fox, correct?
I know he has passed away, but must be smiling above that, at least, they saved the Paramount! I think it was under Mr. Apple’s direction that a Rodgers Electronic Theater Organ was installed for a short time there. I remember hearing Larry Vannuchi or some name like that play there. That was around 1964. The event was put on by Leatherby Music Company, which had distribution rights for Rodgers at the time and they were next to the old ABC-owned KGO-TV and Radio on Golden Gate Avenue.
By the way, you site is magnificant! You speak of Bill Swain – is he the same person who is co-owner of the pipe organ firm Swain & Kates?
I owe you an apology – you are correct. The laws changed in 1978 before we dealt with it. You are a very knowledge person and must be a historian or attorney, but in any case, you are right! I am sure the owner I spoke of wished he did his copyright before January 1, 1978.
The law you speak of is U.S. Title 17, Chapter 3, Sub-Section 302.
Anyone who is willing to digest the copyright law information, which is up-to-date is welcome to….here is the website:
This is speculation, but I supppose the 25-year period of copyright protection requiring renewal is because the government wants their fees. It costs them so money to process the forms and put it in their database. You know whenever you deal with the Federal Government, there is always red tape!
The first time, you send a copy of whatever it is you want to protect. You have tons of forms to fill and the the initial fees to be paid. Renewal is much easier. Just fill out a simple form, they already have your work – if you revise it, you will have to copyright that portion, otherwise if it is the same, just pay your fee and you are good for the duration which is 25 years.
The copyright laws. A group of us put out an album and to deal with the copyright laws with attorneys specializing in that area, same ones which apply to books and movies. You get a copyright. It is good for 25 years – you have to renew it BEFORE it expires – even if one day lapeses after it expires, it is in the public domain and anyone can distribute it. Every 25 years, the copyright has to be renewed. I brought up the point that if one counts from 1979, Preston Kauffman’s copyright would be up for renewal (fees have to be paid and forms signed, nothing like the first time) in 2004 and I understand he passed away before then. By the way, many movies have fallen into the public domain because the studios were careless and forgot to renew their copyright. There is no such thing as a “lifetime” copyright unless you continue to pay the fees before it expires. Most authors and companies are careful about it – a few are not.
Although the corporation we created for the album no longer exists,
the owner of the work still continues to renew the copyright.
One thought on Preston Kaufmann’s “San Francisco Fox – The Last Word” book.
In the 2003 annual eidition of THS dedicated to the S.F. Fox, it mentioned Mr. Kauffman’s recent passing and the fact that the book is scarce and it is doubted that it would ever be printed again.
Mr. Kauffman wrote and placed a copyright on the book in 1979. The copyright lasts for 25 years. It MUST be renewed before it expires,
or it becomes public domain, which means anyone can print it.
If some company who was interested in reprinting the book could locate the lost plates, or whatever they use in publishing from his company which want broke, there might be a chance, a very slim one, that the book could be reprinted, since there are no copyright protections to worry about. The book cannot be copyrighted again, since he was the original owner.
Sir Warren, you are correct about that. Too bad the book is no longer available to others, although I bought mine brand new in 1982.
It was at Holmes Book Store in Oakland. There were 2 copies. Hindsight is 20-20. I SHOULD have bought the other book as well, seeing how valuable it is.
My main point was not the spelling of the Theatre or Theater, but
people referred to the “San Francisco Fox” which was not the correct name. It was the Fox Theatre IN San Francisco. The middle “O” had either “World’s Finest Theater” or “The Last Word” which the latter was more often the case.
If you read, I believe (since I don’t have my copy in front of me) the rear cover flap, Mr. Kaufmann was going to do books on other theaters as well. Too bad he never got around to it and his passing, like Ben Hall’s was a great loss.
Theater expert Jack Tillmany has the correction information on the name:
It was the Fox Theater, period.
It can be referred to as the Fox Theater in San Francisco, but it was NEVER called Fox Theater San Francisco, as compared to the FOX OAKLAND.
Some people get confused that the theater’s name was Fox Theater San Francisco. Same info applies to the Fox Theater in Atlanta, St. Louis, Brooklyn and Detroit.
Mr. Tillmany is quite a theater photo collector and has one of the largest collections of Bay Area theaters. He has two books out:
Theaters of San Francisco and Theaters of Oakland. Both books are excellent and highly recommended. You can get them from amazon.com.
You are correct Sir William, the Fox West Coast Theaters was owned by William Fox. But after the U.S. vs Paramount et al in 1948, he had to make the chain independent of the studios.
I have a question regarding the Centre Theater (former RKO Roxy)
It was demolished in 1954, but what took it’s place. Was it just gutted inside like the Paramount or the entire building torn down?
Is it being used as an NBC studio?
Thanks, CHI74 for the info. I was aware it took 2 year to tear down the Paradise, but wondered what was in the place of both theaters.
Sad thing is, when a building doesn’t make money, down it comes.
It has been written that the landmark case listed in my post, above, played a big role in the demise of great theaters, along with the introduction of television. Another factor was people moved from the city to suberbs, and smaller theaters were erected to serve them – and many suberban residents chose not to drive into the city.
The final death knell for large screen theaters, both city and suburban came in the form of multiplexs – you know, broom closets with no atmosphere, basic set-up, smaller screens and the various fly-traps all shared space with the entire building, instead of one big theater for a feature and another across the street.
I am not fond of multiplexs, but if movie exhibition is to survive, that is the only way it will. The slogan “anything you can do, we can do better” is a fierce competition between home theater (say, a high end one) and those fly-traps.
And, when you look at beautiful theaters like the San Francisco Fox or Chicago Paradise, these multiplexes are broom closets in comparison! Most of them don’t even have a curtain! It’s economics and entry level all down the way. Instead of beautiful murals on the walls or plaster designs, their walls are cheap curtains or some sort of cover-up. Just seats and a screen.
“We sell tickets to theaters – not movies” by Marcus Lowe may have been true in the good old days, but many of the theaters today are not worth the price of the tickets – not to mention the movies!
The information below is what I could come up with at the moment to your question:
trainmaster in the above post you stated that.
“Studios had to divest of them after the court order. That is one reason "Fox West Coast Theaters” was created.“
Can you put a year to that statement?
posted by William on Feb 20, 2008 at 2:54pm
The whole process began as early as 1938 when the Justice Department went after studios for owning theaters and “black booking” and other questionable acts as well. It was called “The Sherman Act.”
The case was sent to the US Supreme Court under the title Full case name: United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc. et al
Citations: 334 U.S. 131
Prior history: Injunction granted, U.S. District Court (66 F.Supp. 323)
It was argued February 9 – 11, 1948.
A final decision was handed down May 3, 1948.
Unfortunately, anyone wanting to read the entire description of the case would have to go to a law library, which, I think, one usually has to a member of the bar. So, we have to make do with what is available.
The trainmaster wants first to address the gentleman named “William”
trainmaster in the above post you stated that.
“Studios had to divest of them after the court order. That is one reason "Fox West Coast Theaters” was created.“
Can you put a year to that statement?
posted by William on Feb 20, 2008 at 2:54pm
Sir William, with all due respects, I will work on it; not feeling my best lately due to a very bad back, but I will research and let all of you know. I am very good at researching.
And to the ever-super helpful kind gentleman named Warren:
Thanks for the info on the picture site! I will do that in a few days. Many of you may not have the theater books I do and would like to see some of these photos, so I will attempt to create a theater album. By the way, let me say that if any of you good folks have problems with your computer feel free to ask me, since I work on them, and I will attempt to help. You can write to me at with your questions. But, to save time, please tell me your Operating System, the amount of RAM you have, how old your computer is (but I can tell by the OS) and I can attempt to help. I recommond that you do NOT waste money calling tech support – they are just people who read from a book and have no knowledge of computers. Please title your message COMPUTER PROBLEMS, as I use that address for junk mail and might overlook it if any other subject title is there.
Sorry to stray off subject, but thought it might be helpful.
Hey, CHI74, thanks for the information! That is good news! What is in place of the the Paradise and Marboro?
William, you are indeed correct, sir! This small font type is hard-to-see and any spelling errors are not deliberate.
For those of you who want to know where the Fox Carthay (I probably mispelled it in the post above) was and what replaced it, you can see two huge beautiful pictures in the FIRST (not current) edition of “Above Los Angeles” by Robert (??) Cameron (those books are hard to pull out – I just looked at them!) the 1978 edition (1st one) and it is one page 68 under “now and then.” These pictures are gorgeous.
If I could upload pictures, I would do it. Are they every going to get that section fixed? And when they do, how do you use it?
I have so many pictures of the S.F. Fox and Los Angeles theater I could put up for you to see. And I am sure many of you have pictures to share. I urge the site owner to please get the picture update section fixed and notify us when it is operating again.
And for those of you who correct either my facts or misspelling, I appreciate very much your time and effort. Nobody if perfect or knows everything. One person stated the Naylor book had errors.
So these corrections are welcome as far as I am concerned.
I enjoy all the posts from everyone! It is nice to re-live the “good old days.”
Thank you for your comment. The Marbro Theater was originally owned by the Marks Brothers and it was sold the the owners of the Paradise.
Both theaters seated over 3,000 people and within walking distance.
Since the Malbro had superior acoustics, the new owners decided to keep it open and close and demolish the Paradise in 1956. Paradise lost!
The Malbro met the same fate in 1963.
Let’s add to that list above:
The Amabassador St. Louis is now demolished.
The Fox Carthway in Los Angeles had more premires than Grauman’s Chinese Theater and, it too, went to the wrecking ball. To add insult to injury, the surviving statue of the figure pouring water was stolen recently. (In yesterday’s news).
A number of theaters face an uncertain future. I am glad from yesterday’s news that the Los Angeles was taken off that list.
The city has plans to revitalize that area and the theater is certainly included. I was concerned about that place, because it’s a beauty. Anyone who has NOT seen these beautiful pictures are directed to this link:
S. Charles Lee built the theater and it was deliberatly designed to somewhat resemble the San Francisco Fox. Unfortunately, Lee did have the money the William Fox empire had to splurge on the theater.
So, it is much smaller, less opulent, but still beautiful and still around and looks like it will be around for a long time. It has its own restuarantk, ballroom, has been closed since 1994 but made money by being rented out. (Any newly-wed love birds need a grand place for a reception?)
Thanks very much for your comments CHI74? I take it you live in Chicago? If you do, what is the status, if you know, of both The Chicago and Oriental Theaters? I believe they are still standing.
Trainmaster
I have seen all of these theaters and I URGE everyone to look at them as well. They are gone. L
I was reading about the Fox Cathway Theater in L.A. (demolished in 1970). It was a first-class theater and had many famous movie premires.
Today, this generation of young people hardly know about that theater.
Chances are, if one goes to 50th and 7th Avenue in New York and wanders into TGIF (the former entrance of the Roxy) or the office building which replaced the theater and ask about the Roxy, hardly anyone will know.
One positive thing about the S.F. Fox. The development which replaced the theater was named “Fox Plaza.” There are pictures inside of the theater. And, the staff is well trained about the theater’s history, so anyone who asks “Why is this place named Fox Plaza?” at least, they will hear about the grand movie palace.
That is more than can be said for the other two mentioned places.
It’s sad when great theaters are forgotten.
One update: the City of Los Angeles plans to revitalize and refurbish Broadway Street to make it look like it did in the golden days and included is the Los Angeles Theater! So things look up for that movie palace. The Fox Oakland is scheduled to re-open October 26, 2008. Let’s hope all goes though.
I was a projectionist at the Park from the mid-1960’s until the “slaughter” as I refer to the twinning of it. I remember the kiddie shows as I worked there most weekends. I thought it was a very nice movie house and wished I had the idea of shooting pictures of the interior/exterior. I took it for granted, but remember those days in the projection booth.
I don’t remember a smaller screen behind a widescreen, but this part may have been removed by the early 1960’s. Remember, movie screens had holes in them to allow the sound to travel through. Carbon-arch lighting was used and 50% of it was lost because of the holes.
I had to go backstage on several occasions and would see the “images” on the back wall as they passed through the holes. I never noticed a screen in back of the one used and it would have been unpractical because of the sound problem. Believe it or not,
the maximum watt output in those days was only about 25 watts; the acoustics of the building carried the sound throughout the auditorium. Theaters were built like that since the days of the “talkies.” Today, with high-power amps, all “shoe-box” auditoriums, as I refer to Multiplexes (I hate them) are designed to
absorb sound waves so there will be no acoustic reflections; in other words, the walls are “dead.” Add to this the lack of a curtain, a 4000-watt Xenon light bulb versus the 25K carbon arch, lack of a projectionist, and one misses the “good old days” of excellent movie presentation in an atmospheric, live acoustic auditorium.
Trainmaster
Oh, one more thing:
I videotaped some sort of “Festival” on Main Street in 1982 and remember a Radio Shack being close to the former El Rey. I could swear the name of the theater then was “Main Street Cinema.”
Comments, please?
Thanks
trainmaster
To the post of Mr.Robert Merk:
You are correct, sir about the El Rey being close to the “Creamery” as the old Greyhound Station was known. I took a few pictures of the place before it was demolished in 1974. It was not aross the theater, but from the El Rey, a couple of buildings north to Civic Drive (which was the ONLY way to get do downtown Walnut Creek in the 1940/1950’s area) and across the street.
Does anyone know when the lovely marquee/facade was ruined by that flat front similiar to the fate of the Enean? Also, is anyone aware of pictures of the auditorium of the El Rey? That was a nice theater. I have a couple of photos of the exterior.
trainmaster
To Ken MC:
That is the exact photo I was referring to. There were two photos of the theater in the “Movie Palaces” (still available from Amazon.com – not a promo) book – the other was a nighttime photo of the exterior.
Does anyone have a DAYTIME photo of the exterior – I would love to see it. Referring back to the photo Ken MC posted, either that
interior shot was taken with an extreme wide-angle lens or the screen was able to show movies with an aspect ratio larger than 235:1. If there are any more photos of the theater, including the lobby, exterior, etc. I would love to see them. Too bad this theater is gone.
Trainmaster
I have written to the management of the Atlanta Fox to suggest they solicit the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences to have at least ONE year of the DAYTIME emmy awards at the Atlanta Fabulous Fox.
That would serve two (2) purposes:
(1) Allow the entire country to see the interior of this beautiful theater
(2) Spare the public from seeing that awful sorry-excuse Kodak Theater in Hollywood which has NO atmosphere what-so-ever.
If they could host the daytime EMMY awards at Radio City Music Hall for years and for the past two years have them at that plain-boring
Kodak Theater, which is much smaller than the Atlanta Fox, why don’t they have at least one year in a beautiful theater worth seeing. I understand the FOX ATLANTA also has 2 ballrooms which could accomodate the ABC and CBS parties afterward. (NBC has dropped out of the Emmy Awards).
LET’S ALL ROOT FOR A NATIONAL TV PRESENTATION IN THAT BEAUTIFUL PLACE! The “Mighty Mo'” could entertain the audience between commercial breaks.
What do some of you fine people think?
Trainmaster
Does anyone know of a book on the “Los Angeles Theater?”
I am aware that the theater appears in numerous theater books, but would like to see a dedicated book on that theater alone.
I am aware the THS did an annual on the Los Angeles Theater. Unfortunately, it is out of stock. Maybe they will offer it again.
Trainmaster
Dear Mr. Swain:
Those photos you did are fantastic!!!!
Also, I met you a couple of times. You won’t remember me because there were so many people in line.
In the San Francisco Bay area, there are 4 magnificant installations you did (you were still active with your company then):
First Presbyterian Church – Richmond CA 1965
First Presbyterian Church – Concord CA 1977-78 (I met you at that meeting when the church approved the renovation of the organ)
First Presbyterian Church – Lafayette-Orinda (???) magnificant sounding organ!
The Mormon Tabernacle in Oakland
First Presbyterian Church in Walnut Creek (1992) I again shook your hand and told you I really liked that organ better than the previous Cassavant-Feres which, unfortunatly, burned down with the building.
I am very happy with your interst in both theaters and of your magnificant organs. I am a professional organist myself, holding a Master’s Degree in organ.
My passions are (1) trains, (2) organs) (3) theaters….hence my name “Trainmaster.
I assume you are interested in the latter two – I’d love to communicate with you via e-mail. Just send a message to me
Warren – I will write you privately since you gave your e-mail address. I DO appreciate very much your comments and information!
I also enjoy haering from the rest of you on theater topics.
And, thanks to you, Mr. Apple, for responding. Yes, I did meet your father a couple times as well at the Paramount. A fantastic gentleman! I can only imageine (from up above he is looking down) he is very pleased that the Paramount now has a 4/33 rank WurliTzer instead of that Rodgers and that the S.F. Fox organ he loved so very much is playing again for the public at the El Captain. Too bad they couldn’t bring it up to Oakland and install it in the Fox for their October 2008 debut! That organ WAS from the Bay Area, and really belongs there! However, it is still great to be able to see and hear it again. A celeste rank was added to make it a 4/37. Kudos to the Disney Company to restoring the appearance of the organ to comply with the original appearance. George Wright and Everett Nourse would have been pleased.
Has anyone heard of the possibility of the “Farewell To The Fox” records being available on CD? I know the Gothic label (which specializes in classical recordings) has the rights and is re-issuing the George Wright theater organ recordings. How odd for a label like Gothic, but with their top-notch quality, how fortunte!
I was shocked when I received the Gothic Catalog and saw the George Wright CD’s available.
Kindest Regards to all. Please excuse my spelling errors – I can’t see that well and this print is SO small!! Guess I am getting old (aren’t we all?)
Old organists never die – they just lose their wind!
Trainmaster
To Warren:
Sir, you are the author of nine books?
Are they on theaters?
If so, I would like to know the titles, so I can search for them!
Maybe some are still in print, manybe not-but used copies do show up.
I certainly would appreciate any information you have on your titles.
I collect theater books.
I also assume you are a member of Theater Historical Society – I wonder if this is a way they could reprint sold-out copies of Marquees and Annuals? I could call them be wondered if you knew.
Yes, it is sad to say that due to these copyright laws, probably no more new pressings of the classic Kauffman book will be released.
That is sad for many, but good for those who have a copy that is very scarce and valuable.
Trainmaster
To Mr. Richard J. Apple:
If I am correct, your father managed the Oakland Paramount after the demise of the Fox, correct?
I know he has passed away, but must be smiling above that, at least, they saved the Paramount! I think it was under Mr. Apple’s direction that a Rodgers Electronic Theater Organ was installed for a short time there. I remember hearing Larry Vannuchi or some name like that play there. That was around 1964. The event was put on by Leatherby Music Company, which had distribution rights for Rodgers at the time and they were next to the old ABC-owned KGO-TV and Radio on Golden Gate Avenue.
By the way, you site is magnificant! You speak of Bill Swain – is he the same person who is co-owner of the pipe organ firm Swain & Kates?
Trainmaster
Warren:
I owe you an apology – you are correct. The laws changed in 1978 before we dealt with it. You are a very knowledge person and must be a historian or attorney, but in any case, you are right! I am sure the owner I spoke of wished he did his copyright before January 1, 1978.
The law you speak of is U.S. Title 17, Chapter 3, Sub-Section 302.
Anyone who is willing to digest the copyright law information, which is up-to-date is welcome to….here is the website:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap3.pdf
Anyone can horsewhip me if they have a horse!
Trainmaster
One thing I forgot to add:
This is speculation, but I supppose the 25-year period of copyright protection requiring renewal is because the government wants their fees. It costs them so money to process the forms and put it in their database. You know whenever you deal with the Federal Government, there is always red tape!
The first time, you send a copy of whatever it is you want to protect. You have tons of forms to fill and the the initial fees to be paid. Renewal is much easier. Just fill out a simple form, they already have your work – if you revise it, you will have to copyright that portion, otherwise if it is the same, just pay your fee and you are good for the duration which is 25 years.
Been there – done that!
Trainmaster
The copyright laws. A group of us put out an album and to deal with the copyright laws with attorneys specializing in that area, same ones which apply to books and movies. You get a copyright. It is good for 25 years – you have to renew it BEFORE it expires – even if one day lapeses after it expires, it is in the public domain and anyone can distribute it. Every 25 years, the copyright has to be renewed. I brought up the point that if one counts from 1979, Preston Kauffman’s copyright would be up for renewal (fees have to be paid and forms signed, nothing like the first time) in 2004 and I understand he passed away before then. By the way, many movies have fallen into the public domain because the studios were careless and forgot to renew their copyright. There is no such thing as a “lifetime” copyright unless you continue to pay the fees before it expires. Most authors and companies are careful about it – a few are not.
Although the corporation we created for the album no longer exists,
the owner of the work still continues to renew the copyright.
Trainmaster
One thought on Preston Kaufmann’s “San Francisco Fox – The Last Word” book.
In the 2003 annual eidition of THS dedicated to the S.F. Fox, it mentioned Mr. Kauffman’s recent passing and the fact that the book is scarce and it is doubted that it would ever be printed again.
Mr. Kauffman wrote and placed a copyright on the book in 1979. The copyright lasts for 25 years. It MUST be renewed before it expires,
or it becomes public domain, which means anyone can print it.
If some company who was interested in reprinting the book could locate the lost plates, or whatever they use in publishing from his company which want broke, there might be a chance, a very slim one, that the book could be reprinted, since there are no copyright protections to worry about. The book cannot be copyrighted again, since he was the original owner.
Something to think about – what do you folks say?
Trainmaster
Sir Warren, you are correct about that. Too bad the book is no longer available to others, although I bought mine brand new in 1982.
It was at Holmes Book Store in Oakland. There were 2 copies. Hindsight is 20-20. I SHOULD have bought the other book as well, seeing how valuable it is.
My main point was not the spelling of the Theatre or Theater, but
people referred to the “San Francisco Fox” which was not the correct name. It was the Fox Theatre IN San Francisco. The middle “O” had either “World’s Finest Theater” or “The Last Word” which the latter was more often the case.
If you read, I believe (since I don’t have my copy in front of me) the rear cover flap, Mr. Kaufmann was going to do books on other theaters as well. Too bad he never got around to it and his passing, like Ben Hall’s was a great loss.
Trainmaster
Thanks for the info
Trainmaster
Theater expert Jack Tillmany has the correction information on the name:
It was the Fox Theater, period.
It can be referred to as the Fox Theater in San Francisco, but it was NEVER called Fox Theater San Francisco, as compared to the FOX OAKLAND.
Some people get confused that the theater’s name was Fox Theater San Francisco. Same info applies to the Fox Theater in Atlanta, St. Louis, Brooklyn and Detroit.
Mr. Tillmany is quite a theater photo collector and has one of the largest collections of Bay Area theaters. He has two books out:
Theaters of San Francisco and Theaters of Oakland. Both books are excellent and highly recommended. You can get them from amazon.com.
Trainmaster
Trainmaster
You are correct Sir William, the Fox West Coast Theaters was owned by William Fox. But after the U.S. vs Paramount et al in 1948, he had to make the chain independent of the studios.
Interesting story of William Fox on;
View link
Trainmaster
I have a question regarding the Centre Theater (former RKO Roxy)
It was demolished in 1954, but what took it’s place. Was it just gutted inside like the Paramount or the entire building torn down?
Is it being used as an NBC studio?
What is the story?
Appreciate any replies…
Trainmaster
Thanks, CHI74 for the info. I was aware it took 2 year to tear down the Paradise, but wondered what was in the place of both theaters.
Sad thing is, when a building doesn’t make money, down it comes.
It has been written that the landmark case listed in my post, above, played a big role in the demise of great theaters, along with the introduction of television. Another factor was people moved from the city to suberbs, and smaller theaters were erected to serve them – and many suberban residents chose not to drive into the city.
The final death knell for large screen theaters, both city and suburban came in the form of multiplexs – you know, broom closets with no atmosphere, basic set-up, smaller screens and the various fly-traps all shared space with the entire building, instead of one big theater for a feature and another across the street.
I am not fond of multiplexs, but if movie exhibition is to survive, that is the only way it will. The slogan “anything you can do, we can do better” is a fierce competition between home theater (say, a high end one) and those fly-traps.
And, when you look at beautiful theaters like the San Francisco Fox or Chicago Paradise, these multiplexes are broom closets in comparison! Most of them don’t even have a curtain! It’s economics and entry level all down the way. Instead of beautiful murals on the walls or plaster designs, their walls are cheap curtains or some sort of cover-up. Just seats and a screen.
“We sell tickets to theaters – not movies” by Marcus Lowe may have been true in the good old days, but many of the theaters today are not worth the price of the tickets – not to mention the movies!
Trainmaster
Okay, Sir William:
Here is the entire case of 334 U.S. 131
United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc. et al
You can find it at this site and read it in its entire form:
View link
Hope that helps
Trainmaster
William:
The information below is what I could come up with at the moment to your question:
trainmaster in the above post you stated that.
“Studios had to divest of them after the court order. That is one reason "Fox West Coast Theaters” was created.“
Can you put a year to that statement?
posted by William on Feb 20, 2008 at 2:54pm
The whole process began as early as 1938 when the Justice Department went after studios for owning theaters and “black booking” and other questionable acts as well. It was called “The Sherman Act.”
The case was sent to the US Supreme Court under the title Full case name: United States v. Paramount Pictures, Inc. et al
Citations: 334 U.S. 131
Prior history: Injunction granted, U.S. District Court (66 F.Supp. 323)
It was argued February 9 – 11, 1948.
A final decision was handed down May 3, 1948.
Unfortunately, anyone wanting to read the entire description of the case would have to go to a law library, which, I think, one usually has to a member of the bar. So, we have to make do with what is available.
Trainmaster
Hello:
The trainmaster wants first to address the gentleman named “William”
trainmaster in the above post you stated that.
“Studios had to divest of them after the court order. That is one reason "Fox West Coast Theaters” was created.“
Can you put a year to that statement?
posted by William on Feb 20, 2008 at 2:54pm
Sir William, with all due respects, I will work on it; not feeling my best lately due to a very bad back, but I will research and let all of you know. I am very good at researching.
And to the ever-super helpful kind gentleman named Warren:
Thanks for the info on the picture site! I will do that in a few days. Many of you may not have the theater books I do and would like to see some of these photos, so I will attempt to create a theater album. By the way, let me say that if any of you good folks have problems with your computer feel free to ask me, since I work on them, and I will attempt to help. You can write to me at with your questions. But, to save time, please tell me your Operating System, the amount of RAM you have, how old your computer is (but I can tell by the OS) and I can attempt to help. I recommond that you do NOT waste money calling tech support – they are just people who read from a book and have no knowledge of computers. Please title your message COMPUTER PROBLEMS, as I use that address for junk mail and might overlook it if any other subject title is there.
Sorry to stray off subject, but thought it might be helpful.
Hey, CHI74, thanks for the information! That is good news! What is in place of the the Paradise and Marboro?
William, you are indeed correct, sir! This small font type is hard-to-see and any spelling errors are not deliberate.
For those of you who want to know where the Fox Carthay (I probably mispelled it in the post above) was and what replaced it, you can see two huge beautiful pictures in the FIRST (not current) edition of “Above Los Angeles” by Robert (??) Cameron (those books are hard to pull out – I just looked at them!) the 1978 edition (1st one) and it is one page 68 under “now and then.” These pictures are gorgeous.
If I could upload pictures, I would do it. Are they every going to get that section fixed? And when they do, how do you use it?
I have so many pictures of the S.F. Fox and Los Angeles theater I could put up for you to see. And I am sure many of you have pictures to share. I urge the site owner to please get the picture update section fixed and notify us when it is operating again.
And for those of you who correct either my facts or misspelling, I appreciate very much your time and effort. Nobody if perfect or knows everything. One person stated the Naylor book had errors.
So these corrections are welcome as far as I am concerned.
I enjoy all the posts from everyone! It is nice to re-live the “good old days.”
Best wishes to all
Trainmaster
Thank you for your comment. The Marbro Theater was originally owned by the Marks Brothers and it was sold the the owners of the Paradise.
Both theaters seated over 3,000 people and within walking distance.
Since the Malbro had superior acoustics, the new owners decided to keep it open and close and demolish the Paradise in 1956. Paradise lost!
The Malbro met the same fate in 1963.
Let’s add to that list above:
The Amabassador St. Louis is now demolished.
The Fox Carthway in Los Angeles had more premires than Grauman’s Chinese Theater and, it too, went to the wrecking ball. To add insult to injury, the surviving statue of the figure pouring water was stolen recently. (In yesterday’s news).
A number of theaters face an uncertain future. I am glad from yesterday’s news that the Los Angeles was taken off that list.
The city has plans to revitalize that area and the theater is certainly included. I was concerned about that place, because it’s a beauty. Anyone who has NOT seen these beautiful pictures are directed to this link:
http://www.losangelestheatre.com/
S. Charles Lee built the theater and it was deliberatly designed to somewhat resemble the San Francisco Fox. Unfortunately, Lee did have the money the William Fox empire had to splurge on the theater.
So, it is much smaller, less opulent, but still beautiful and still around and looks like it will be around for a long time. It has its own restuarantk, ballroom, has been closed since 1994 but made money by being rented out. (Any newly-wed love birds need a grand place for a reception?)
Thanks very much for your comments CHI74? I take it you live in Chicago? If you do, what is the status, if you know, of both The Chicago and Oriental Theaters? I believe they are still standing.
Trainmaster
I have seen all of these theaters and I URGE everyone to look at them as well. They are gone. L
I was reading about the Fox Cathway Theater in L.A. (demolished in 1970). It was a first-class theater and had many famous movie premires.
Today, this generation of young people hardly know about that theater.
Chances are, if one goes to 50th and 7th Avenue in New York and wanders into TGIF (the former entrance of the Roxy) or the office building which replaced the theater and ask about the Roxy, hardly anyone will know.
One positive thing about the S.F. Fox. The development which replaced the theater was named “Fox Plaza.” There are pictures inside of the theater. And, the staff is well trained about the theater’s history, so anyone who asks “Why is this place named Fox Plaza?” at least, they will hear about the grand movie palace.
That is more than can be said for the other two mentioned places.
It’s sad when great theaters are forgotten.
One update: the City of Los Angeles plans to revitalize and refurbish Broadway Street to make it look like it did in the golden days and included is the Los Angeles Theater! So things look up for that movie palace. The Fox Oakland is scheduled to re-open October 26, 2008. Let’s hope all goes though.
Trainmaster